Mitch Cronin Posted November 23, 2006 Author Share Posted November 23, 2006 Hi Greg, When I check the emotion, I can agree with you... I sure do share your hopes in any case... and I very much appreciate the discussion. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Hi Mitch I think that's what we all want Mitch In my view this approach just may help to bring that about. This is a country with vast differences but as different as Alberta is from Newfoundland there is still a much greater difference between Quebec and anywhere else in Canada primarily due to language. French is one of our two national languages. Calling Quebec a nation within a united country makes a lot of sense to me and hopefully to Quebecers as well. As I say I hope this takes a great deal of wind out of the sails of the separatists. Frankly I think that it is also helpful because it is being done by a Prime Minister who is seen as being from the west. Hopefully by acknowledging that we have differences in this manner, it will over time draw us closer together. Greg It's also important to underscore that Harper isn't calling Quebec a nation, he's calling francophone Quebeckers a nation, which is very different because it can't be exploited to obtain additional powers except, perhaps, in culture-related areas. It is a long, long way from calling Quebec a distinct society in the constitution. It may be so meaningless that it changes nothing, regardless of your point of view, but it certainly avoids a trap the BQ was trying to set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDR Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 It's also important to underscore that Harper isn't calling Quebec a nation, he's calling francophone Quebeckers a nation, which is very different because it can't be exploited to obtain additional powers except, perhaps, in culture-related areas. It is a long, long way from calling Quebec a distinct society in the constitution. Interesting point but is a "Quebecker" a cultural term or a geographic one. When I lived in Quebec I considered myself a Quebecker. If it is geographic the I think it becomes something of a moot point as to whether he is referring to Quebec as a nation or to the citizens of Quebec as a nation. I have to admit I'm not sure what this means if anything. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 OTTAWA (CP) - Stephen Harper's move to recognize Quebec as a nation won't have any practical impact on the way political power is divvied up in Canada, a senior Tory cabinet member admitted Thursday. "There are no juridical consequences to this recognition," said Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon, who doubles as the prime minister's political lieutenant for Quebec. "We're not in the process of constitutional discussions. We're in the process of affirming that the Quebec nation is part of a united Canada." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 Very happy to recognize French Quebecers as a nation or a distinct society or whatever as long as it doesn't give them special powers above everyone else. To the francophones on this board, congatulations, you are now recognized as different. But...time will tell if the prvince now starts making whatever moves it takes to somehow get more powers(money) than others. Then perhaps the truer colours will come out, if they exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Very happy to recognize French Quebecers as a nation or a distinct society or whatever as long as it doesn't give them special powers above everyone else. To the francophones on this board, congatulations, you are now recognized as different. But...time will tell if the prvince now starts making whatever moves it takes to somehow get more powers(money) than others. Then perhaps the truer colours will come out, if they exist. If Stephane Dion says the motion is just a gesture with no powers or priviledges - and he's voting for it - then that tells me what I need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mo32a Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 They aren't better then Canadians, they are simply different and they want things to stay that way. Just wondering why "they" should get to have things "stay the way they were" The ROC has had to grow and change and accept many cultural diversities within their own lives, why shouldn't Quebec.? If we tried to declare English as the only official language in any province it would not be allowed, why does Quebec get to set French as their unilingual official language. The country I live in now is a very different one from the one I was born in - I would love to have preserved all the traditions and the lifestyle I had growing up, -didn't happen!!! Happy Holidays.......awww screw that .......Merry Christmas!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 As to how folks in the west view the issue. Two very different results in two surveys. I was surprised to see the results of the same poll in a Montreal Paper. (Traditional) but also of course English Language. What is the reaction in the rest of Quebec? Calgary Herald (Traditional Newspaper) Poll As a westerner, do you support Stephen Harper’s motion to declare Quebec “a nation within a united Canada?” Yes 50.76 % No 49.24 % Calgary Sun (Tabloid) Do you think Quebecers should be recognized as a nation within Canada? Yes: (15.68%) No: (84.47%) And from the Montreal Gazette Poll Do you think Quebecers should be recognized as a nation? Yes 25.25 % No 74.75 % Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Here's my offer to Quebec! Leave Canada debt free but agree to open and "free" access of Canadians by road, rail, air or water! See ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Just wondering why "they" should get to have things "stay the way they were" The ROC has had to grow and change and accept many cultural diversities within their own lives, why shouldn't Quebec.? If we tried to declare English as the only official language in any province it would not be allowed, why does Quebec get to set French as their unilingual official language. The country I live in now is a very different one from the one I was born in - I would love to have preserved all the traditions and the lifestyle I had growing up, -didn't happen!!! Happy Holidays.......awww screw that .......Merry Christmas!!!! While Quebec has one official language, it offers many services in both languages. In that regard, it is more bilingual than any other province with the possible exception of the officially bilingual New Brunswick. Quebec is somewhat analogous to Ontario, in that Ontario is not a bilingual province, but offers quite a few French language services in Toronto and in Northern Ontario. As for Quebec accepting many cultural diversities, again, you would be surprised at the ethnic competition of the island of Montreal today vs yesteryear. Much is changing. But just as people in Calgary expect an immigrant to that city to ultimately learn English, Quebec expects immigrants to that province to ultimately speak French, and unlike many parts of Canada, that province provides a lot of language training to those who arrive. I'd also note that in my day in Quebec, which included my entire education from kindergarden to post-graduate, most anglos only spoke rudimentary French because the school system was pretty bad at teaching it, but today, anglos, including a lot of my relatives and many children of immigrants, speak French fluently and actually have an economic advantage over unilingual francophones. The children of immigrants often speak three languages fluently, and they will enjoy great opportunities, in Quebec or outside the province. If anything, nationalists may have created a monster in that they many francophones want their children to have the same opportunity to learn English well so that they are similarly equipped. Indeed, much has changed and will continue to change in Quebec. People who haven't been to Quebec in 10, 15, 20 years, would be astonished at the changes. I go back every year and I always see new and changed things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Here's my offer to Quebec! Leave Canada debt free but agree to open and "free" access of Canadians by road, rail, air or water! See ya! Debt free All they have to do is wait until 2020 and there will be no debt, or so Smiling Jim Flaherty would like us to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Change in the BLOC position and whining from another group who claims to lack representation but who do vote in Canadian Elections and who could also form a federal party. Bloc to support Tory motion declaring Quebec a nation within a united Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at 11:36 on November 24, 2006, EST. OTTAWA (CP) - The Bloc Quebecois will support a Conservative motion recognizing Quebec's status as a nation within Canada - something one aboriginal leader says smacks of Meech Lake. Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe says his party will vote in favour of the motion, which calls the Quebecois a nation within a united Canada. The motion was initiated by Prime Minister Stephen Harper to upstage a similar Bloc motion, which had initially called for recognition of Quebec as a nation, but with no mention of Canada. Earlier this week, the Bloc amended its motion to read that Quebecers are a nation "currently within Canada." Assembly of First Nations Grand Chief Phil Fontaine says, just like when the Meech Lake Accord was being formulated more than a decade ago, Canada's aboriginals are being denied input into what could be a historically significant change to Quebec's status within Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Change in the BLOC position and whining from another group who claims to lack representation but who do vote in Canadian Elections and who could also form a federal party. Bloc to support Tory motion declaring Quebec a nation within a united Canada -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at 11:36 on November 24, 2006, EST. OTTAWA (CP) - The Bloc Quebecois will support a Conservative motion recognizing Quebec's status as a nation within Canada - something one aboriginal leader says smacks of Meech Lake. Bloc Leader Gilles Duceppe says his party will vote in favour of the motion, which calls the Quebecois a nation within a united Canada. The motion was initiated by Prime Minister Stephen Harper to upstage a similar Bloc motion, which had initially called for recognition of Quebec as a nation, but with no mention of Canada. Earlier this week, the Bloc amended its motion to read that Quebecers are a nation "currently within Canada." Assembly of First Nations Grand Chief Phil Fontaine says, just like when the Meech Lake Accord was being formulated more than a decade ago, Canada's aboriginals are being denied input into what could be a historically significant change to Quebec's status within Canada. I guess Phil doesn't understand the difference between a toothless motion in Parliament and a change in the Constitution, but he must have a pretty good sense of what constitutes a nation because he runs around speaking for enough of them. Artful flip-flop by Duceppe. The motion is now even more meaningless, which is why I suppose he changed his tune - not wanting to look like a complete moron for having boxed himself in. However, this contradicts what PQ leader Andre Boisclair has been saying for the past two days and now makes HIM look like the fool. Delightful cartoon in LaPresse today. Doesn't really need a translation either... http://www.cyberpresse.ca/apps/pbcs.dll/mi...S%26nocache%3D1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Cabinet minister resigns in advance of vote Published: Monday, November 27, 2006 A cabinet minister in Stephen Harper's government has reportedly resigned in advance of today's vote on a motion to recognize Quebecers as a nation within Canada. Michael Chong, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and MP for the riding of Wellington-Halton Hills, will hold a news conference announcing his resignation this afternoon, according to sources. The motion, introduced by Prime Minister Harper, has proved highly divisive within Parliament. Leadership candidate Michael Ignatieff has endorsed a similar resolution, while Gerard Kennedy will reportedly vote against the motion. On his web site, Mr. Chong says that as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, he has "responsibility for issues concerning national unity, for issues concerning federal-provincial-territorial relations, for constitutional and legal issues relating to the evolution of Confederation." The MP's most recent posting on his site said he was "proud to be a part of a government that takes seriously its role to govern well and effectively." Mr. Chong was first elected to Parliament in 2004 and also served as Minister of Sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Sounds like Mr. Chong feels he was left out of the loop on the issue. In the past he has made statements indicating that he feels our focus should be on those things which we share in common, as opposed to our political and cultural differences. I'm saddened to see him step down. He's a bright guy who's gained alot of respect here in the riding. Chantal Hebert had an interesting editorial on the subject today: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The worst day in the life of Gilles Duceppe CHANTAL HEBERT (Nov 27, 2006) Today may go down as the worst day in the life of Gilles Duceppe as leader of the Bloc Québécois. The expected adoption by the House of Commons of a Conservative motion recognizing that Quebecers make up a nation within a united Canada stands to blunt one of the most potent weapons left in the sovereigntist psychological arsenal. There is not one federalist leader on Parliament Hill and in the National Assembly that will not find it easier to make the case for Canada in Quebec on the strength of this motion. Its adoption also makes the possibility that there will be another referendum more remote, even if the Parti Québécois comes to power after the upcoming provincial election. And it is the result of a gross miscalculation on Duceppe's part. When the Bloc decided to bring the issue of Quebec's national character to the floor of the Commons last week, it fully expected to wreak havoc in federalist ranks. In his worst nightmares, Duceppe never imagined that the prime minister would pick up the gauntlet or that the other parties would rally behind him. Now, it looks like the Bloc has squandered a key argument in the long battle for the hearts and souls of Quebecers in a failed attempt to score cheap political points. In the process, it has also legitimized the notion that the rest of Canada has a say in the definition of Quebec's political character. Last week, PQ leader André Boisclair scrambled to put the best possible face on this enforced error. He stated that the parliamentary recognition of Quebecers' national character would eventually make it easier to for a sovereign Quebec to be recognized on the international scene. What Boisclair did not say is that the adoption of the motion will make it harder for his party to stage another referendum, or at least one that it can be confident of winning. In the debate over Quebec's future, symbolism has always trumped division-of-power issues. Until this motion, the sovereigntists had entered that field with the advantage. Without the failure to enshrine Quebec's distinct status in the Constitution in 1990, there would not have been a second referendum or a close vote on sovereignty in 1995. The sense that Canada is so wary of Quebec's aspirations that it cannot recognize its fundamental nature continues to fuel the sovereignty movement, despite its two consecutive referendum failures. Today's motion -- as symbolic as it may be -- amounts to cutting off that fuel line. It also places Canada on the leading edge of the international debate on federalist arrangements. In the post-Cold War era, the concept that a people can form a nation without requiring all the attributes of a state, the accompanying one that different nations should be able to live together under the same political roof have emerged as compelling elements of an alternative model to a world fragmented along narrow ethnic lines. Spain -- which has recently extended national recognition to Catalonia -- is finding that it has taken the steam out of that province's secessionist movement, enhancing its own national integrity in the process. Today, the Bloc will vote for a federalist motion that stands to deflate its cause, an extraordinary twist in an unexpected saga. In the past, the party has voted against parliamentary motions dealing with the recognition of Quebec's national character. After the referendum, sovereigntist MPs opposed a Liberal resolution that called on the federal government to take Quebec's distinct character into account in its decisions. But this is different. The distinct society concept was a federalist idea borne out of the desire for a constitutional reconciliation. From the start, sovereigntists dismissed it as an anemic reflection of Quebec's reality. For years, their leaders have claimed that Quebecers should accept nothing less than the recognition by the rest of Canada that they make up a nation. They have also claimed it would never happen. But by the end of last week, Duceppe found himself in a trap of his own making, caught between supporting a federalist consensus on Quebec or voting against a concept he and his fellow sovereigntists have promoted. And so, on the core question underlying the Quebec/Canada debate, that of Quebecers' national identity, the Bloc will stand shoulder to shoulder with MPs from all parties and from across Canada today. After 16 years, it does seem the Bloc has come full circle. The party wanted to bring the sovereigntist battle to Parliament Hill; it has ended up handing new weapons to its federalist foes. Chantal Hebert writes on national affairs for Torstar News Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 House Passes Motion Recognizing Québécois as Nation Monday, November 27, 2006 | 8:51 PM ET CBC News The House of Commons has overwhelmingly passed a motion recognizing Québécois as a nation within Canada. Conservatives, most Liberal MPs, the NDP and the Bloc voted 266 to 16 in support of the controversial motion, which earlier in the day had prompted the resignation of Michael Chong as intergovernmental affairs minister. Fifteen Liberal MPs voted against the motion, along with Independent MP Garth Turner. Complete Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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