Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 This is not related to the AT Azores incident... though the question came to me while I watched the Discovery Channel show... Are some of you under the false impression that it is possible to transfer fuel in flight? Let me explain: Some time ago, I joined a crew for a test flight in a 767... Some extended APU burn had created a small imballance in our very light fuel load and the FO opened the crossfeed during taxi, hoping to correct the imbalance... She remarked after a time that it didn't seem to be making a difference, and she closed the valve before takeoff anyway... I think she believed she could transfer fuel from tank to tank.... The Flying on Empty show I just watched depicted the FO making a similar comment, and I have no idea if they used any CVR data, nor for sure whether or not the comment was actually about transfer from trim tank to the center, but it again made me wonder... These big airplanes have no provision for transfer from side to side, strictly from within the aircraft. Yes, they'll transfer from outer to inner, and back if desired in at least one aircraft I'm familiar with.... and trim tank transfers to center tank, and center tank to mains.... but I can't think of a single aircraft where side to side transfer is possible without going outside to open a transfer valve... do you guys know that? You can correct an imbalance with crossfeed if you shut off the pumps in the tank that's low, but ya can't transfer. Thus concludes todays lesson donning flak jacket now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 ...of course, now it occurs to me that it's not likely any of you will admit to having thought otherwise.... And... it's possible I'm wrong about the big bus?... I have doubts that it's greatly changed from the A310, but I am not endorsed, nor very experienced on the 330... Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mitch, I'd guess you are not familiar with the DC-8 system. Transfer was entirely possible. The X-Feed manifold ran across the complete fuel tank system. You could put fuel from any tank to any tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussD Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Yikes You actually qualified to fix these things?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hmmm... I figured someone would pipe up with some old beast that made it possible... Nope, you're right, I'm not familiar with the DC-8'... I've had only brief (yet unforgettable) experiences with Nationair's 8's You can't on a 767, nor a DC-10, nor an A310, nor A319,A320,A321, nor a 737, nor (I think... been a while)a 747 classic... I've wondered if that was a common misconception ever since that test flight... Now, I don't suppose I'll ever know. I should've asked her if it was something she'd forgotten, or never knew... but it seemed the captain also expected it... and then the comment on this Discovery show reminded me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Oh please... ok, tell me why you'd say that. You owe me that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussD Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Cause what you stated as undisputable 'Cronin' fact is wrong. Put away the rum bottle and try your lecture out in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Tell me please, without the insults if you can, but with if you must, where I am wrong? On which birds can you actually transfer, wing to wing, in flight, other than the DC8... (ya see, I'm learning stuff here)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hi again Mitch. There's always some %&*)@ that has an exception that lets him split hairs but without having been checked out on some of the types you mention, I can't speak to them for sure, but if I remember the 767 I believe you are correct that you can not shift fuel tank to tank across the aircraft. Ditto the 340. You can feed engines from across the tank system and that of course unhappily means possibly feeding leaks in the engine system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Yep, that's it... Actually, on the '67, it's not a transfer valve, but a "defueling valve" needs to be opened to get fuel to the refuel-defuel manifold, and then the tank fueling valves need to be opened for the tank you want fuel in.... which can only be done outside at the fuel panel. The thread's a mess now, since someone deleted his posts (I won't embarrass him)... And maybe it wasn't a question I'd get answers to, but I were curious... Cheers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sustainable Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mitch! It's been a while admittedly but I seem to remember that the DC-10-30 was capable of putting fuel to/from any tank to any tank via the fuel manifold. The exception being from that tank in the aft cargo area that you had to select the auto or standby fuel transfer depending on the C of G. (Oh the horror!) The fuel manifold was espically handy if someone completed the fuel sched light on checklist in an innappropriate manner, such as when the C of G fuel in the tips of the 1 & 3 tanks failed to transfer once the main tank quantity got below 5800 lbs. Then the dope, and no, it wasn't me, who inadvertently pumped what was remaining at the root, into the now inaccessable tip, could still pressurize the manifold and re-light the flamed out engine. Yeah I miss it.... like a toothache! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Innes Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Not totally correct Mitch, On the DC10 standard fuel transfer was tank to tank. The crossfeed was used as a secondary method, or Conditional Procedure. Any main tank could receive or transfer to another main tank. Aux tanks could only transfer fuel to a main tank or in the the case of an Aft Aux (ER version) or Lower Aux they could transfer to the Upper Aux as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFG Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hi, Mitch - re: "On which birds can you actually transfer, wing to wing, in flight..." - Do weed-whackers count ? DH-8 can transfer (and a tip-tanked Twotter also can, if for some reason you wanted to do it ...) Doesn't seem to be in Mr. Boeing's bag of tricks tho', except when he owned DHC of course... Cheers, IFG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Blast, you're right... Thanks to both you and Jim Innes for that correction... You could transfer, in flight on the 10. I'd remembered that fuel sched light, and the oddities related to the auto outer to inner transfer, early or late transfer putting on the light, and the transfer pumps for transferring fuel outbd for the early transfer fix, but I'd forgotten about the ability to use them to fill other tanks as well... ....sigh... rusty grey matter I guess? Ok, scratch the dear old diesel from that list. ....and I'm wondering about the '47 classic now... Those books are here some place too... I just found cobwebs on my DC10 books for gawd sakes! Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Sure, they count for some things. Thanks for that IFG... Doesn't seem to be in the Bus's bag either, but now I'm just waitin' to hear from someone about the 330/340?? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Spectator Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 On the big busses, just as you said, centre tank to inner tank transfers, outers to inners, centre to trim and vice versa, inners to trim and vice versa if centre already empty but NOT wing to wing. The 330-300 does not have a centre tank (the 340 and 330-200 do). Also some of the classic 747's had a refuel panel in the cockpit on the FE's panel with the jettison controls so you could tranfer fuel by using a combination of both. (no need to open the manual defuel "transfer" valve at the wing fueling station) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aBusDriver Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Mitch...it's pretty simple on the A330. As you stated....with the crossfeeds open, nothing will really happen until you shut off the pumps on the low side. Fuel transfer is not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Guess that's why it's called cross-FEED rather than a transfer valve! Can't speak for Lockheed, Airbus or Bombardier/Embraer, but that's how Boeing does it. Turboprops are different. The Dash 8 was a transfer system from one main tank or aux tank to the opposite side's collector. I only flew one Dash 8 that had aux tanks. Kind of useless really as using them, not even filling them, really hampered your useful load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pictues Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Wouldn't that be exactly what the crew did when they opened the cross feed valve so they would use fuel from the left tank until it reached the same wieght as the right? The A330 pilot said the imbalance should have corrected imediately after opening the cross feed valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Thanks Spec. I'm just looking through chapter 28 in this dusty old 747 training book... ... It says those jettison pumps (under the covered Jettison panel by the FE) pressurize the fueling and jettison manifolds... and since refuel valves are controllable from within, it looks like that would certainly allow for transfer... But... it also says, out on the wing, the outboard manual defuel valves are used for transfer and connect the crossfeed manifold to the fueling and jettison manifold... I guess utilizing the crossfeed manifold allows for a faster transfer/flow rate by using all the boost pumps in the tank instead of just jettison pumps alone. And coming to that, I think that's the case with the 10 as well... the transfer pumps alone would take all day. Which explains why I remember going out to the wing every time I needed to transfer fuel. This is one of those things that I need to get my mitts on the beast to understand it better... which isn't likely to happen any time soon with either the old 47's or the 10's [insert sad frowny thing] Anyway, thanks all for indulging me in this little exploration... I still think there may be some 767 drivers around who think they can transfer.... but so what, I guess... I don't suppose it'll hurt 'em any to think so... Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Negative... Opening the crossfeed alone would only allow equal feed from both sides. The only way to equalize quantities (assuming NO LEAK) would be to open crossfeed and shut off the pumps from the low tank 'til you'd drawn enough from the high tank to equalize. (And I have no idea if your SOP's, or FCOM's, or whatever, would permit that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 "Wouldn't that be exactly what the crew did when they opened the cross feed valve so they would use fuel from the left tank until it reached the same wieght as the right?" Possibly, but setting off a whole new flurry of speculation without having the facts will inevitably point fingers all over the place, and probably criticize people unfairly, let's wait and see where the investigation assigns responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Are you the fellow that invented the Vic-Maui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bm330 Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 The AT 330 in question cannot transfer fuel between wings. By opening the cross feed valves it allows fuel from the opposite wing to feed the other engine (right wing tank to left engine). This must be accompanied by turning off the low side fuel pumps or the system maintains path of least resistance and pumps tank to engine (left to left, right to right). FYI the 330/200 has no ability to jetison fuel - it can land at max wt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jazz Monkey Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Dash 8's can transfer fuel from side to side while inflight. The Navajo can run both engines from the same side thereby burning away the imbalance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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