Guest Fleet80 Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 This is just an observation, which leads me to a suggestion - no slagging is intended (nor returned I hope!) Question for ramp colleagues. I was in YYC recently, flight planning at 14:00 In the ready room there was about 10 employees, maybe more. Our scheduled departure was 14:50, we left late, because the ramp crew was still loading bags at departure time (I'm presuming this, but all pax were on board and seated prior to sched departure). I know there have been ramp layoffs and reduced crews, and it'a been hotter than hades out West, but why are there so many crews hanging out in the ready room mid afternoon when a couple of teams are busting their humps to load a packed aircraft? Has anyone thought of maybe putting 2 crews on an aircraft when there are so many employees with time on their hands waiting for their next flight? Why do we only use 1 crew when it looked like 3-4 crews were "unscheduled"? Can anyone enlighten me about the various issues I'm probably missing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Putting more people on it would be like adding another pilot or 2 to the flight deck.Really no need is there.May have been late cnx baggage.Next time your 15 mins.from departure chances are one belly door will be already closed up.so throwing more people at a flight would just mean you would have more people standing around at the aircraft, getting in the way more then anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJRT Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Here's an even better question. Why can't a free crew who is standing idley at the next bridge over marshall us in when our ramp crew is busy somewhere else? Or is that part of the "union game " as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 One small consolation in our new contract, and I know this will come back to bite me, is that anyone who's capable and competent to perform any task, is able to step up to the plate and do so.... Therefore, I can tell you that in any case where I see an aircraft in need of a marshaller, if I am not otherwise engaged at the time, or if I can spare the few minutes, I WILL marshall that aircraft onto the gate, and put the gate to onto the aircraft. The bags will still have to wait unfortunately. (perhaps that'll be the "bite"?) So, if you see a hairy faced mechanic waving you on in YYZ (identifiable by the lack of wands or gloves, and a big hairy grin), flash me if you'd rather wait, otherwise come on in... I'm going to continue to do what I can to see our customers get what they pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spoggers Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 CJRT - Great Question ! Time and time again, when arriving in YYZ, there is a crew who could at least marshall an aircraft to the gate. I have never seen a non scheduled crew jump over and marshall one in ! Sorry if I'm "Ticking" someone off but, this is what I see ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patrick Bergen Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 One of the key elements of evolving the company into a profitable one with fewer staff is communication. Flight crews can communicate concerns or issues with the manpower planners in STOC. If you are waiting for a crew to park you and you see one available it would be reasonable to ask STOC on the air to ground if they can be used. If departure time is passing a call for an updated time and reason for the passengers would also be a good idea. Success is built on participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Thank Christ! This 'only the lead' crap had to end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dash eight Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 OK this is all fine and all letting a mechanic marshall an aircraft onto the gate but where is the ramp crew that is assigned that particular gate??? If they are inside sitting on their lazy asses then the &%$@! should hit the fan. If they are busy with another flight then it can be put down to ramp congestion? BTW for the mechanic.. if you are marshalling at night better use wands!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fleet80 Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Thanks for the reply. I agree that assigning a full 2nd team wouldn't seem realistic or helpful, but there are often whole teams waiting in the ready room for a flight. I've read on this forum that many of the teams have been reduced by 1 or 2, leaving say 3 to turn a 320, so why can't teams be "broken up" so to speak, to assist. Here's what I see: we're late for whatever reason. Someone comes to the bridge to haul down strollers and wheelchairs, the cargo doors finally close, the lead does a quick walk-around, someone pulls the ground power, someone pulls the chocks, someone removes carts and equipment, and someone climbs the stairs to close the door and move the bridge while another is on the phone calling in the numbers. I count 7 tasks to be done by 3 guys before everyone gets in position to walk the a/c out. Isn't there somewhere in this process that a 4th or 5th set of hands would help to speed up the process? In a world where minutes count so much, it doesn't seem right that the one short-handed crew is sweating it out, while 10 guys are 50 feet away reading a newspaper. Wouldn't a "black belt" sigma kinda guy analyze this process and see ways to deliver faster, better and safer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fleet80 Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Dash 8, I really don't think it's called for to just call ramp crews lazy in this thread. AC is notorious for designing labour intensive, ridiculous processes, laying people off and then expecting them to do the same crap with fewer people for little or no reason. It would be far better to think of new ways of doing things than to be like a typical AC manager who screams at the overworked masses to work harder. The definition of insanity, as you probably know, is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I'm in agreement with this post but, I must comment on the "Black Belt" program. IMO, the BBS6 program is just more smoke and mirrors for management to hide behind! Why not hire and place the right people in the proper positions rather beating an old dead horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Get rid of the TV's in the ramp ready rooms! We've all seen what happens when something of interest is on the boob tube! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dash eight Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 oh ok fleet 80 then i guess what you are saying is that it is ok for one crew to work themselves to death while their coworkers enjoy a cold drink and catch up on the tube then eh? Give me a break! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Typical Air Canada management tactic is to stick it to the guys who are not afraid of work and just let the slackers be.Been going on for years.After a while the guys doing most of the work get fed up while the slackers just continue to slack off.As the prop turns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 And we wonder why the outfit is BANKRUPT! Standby for more paycuts. Management has NO plan to fix the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I don't know the situation out in YYC but we will use my backyard as the setting for my two cents in this thread(YYZ). If you are working a 67 turn we usually had two crews on said flight this accounted for a total of 8 guys .....1st crew usually worked the back door and sent one guy to help one guy from the 2nd crew to do the bulk the rest of the 2nd crew worked the front door. Once the front was done and the bulk is under control the 2nd crew is usually waved off to either get a quick break before the next flight or to go and line it up. Usually the back door will be closed before the last minute bulk bags show up and the 1st crew can take care of that. But if you suddenly get swamped by lots of CNX bags or late bags these things do take time......having another 4 guys standing around is not going to help, unless they are going to start to pull the bridge ...but then you guys up front usually start to get Antsy when no one's talking to you. Now for the situation in YYZ they recently removed the 4th guy from our crews so it is now a Lead and two S/A's so yes things are now a bit tighter. As for not having a crew to park you I have said it before on here Look at the gate if the equipment is on the gate and the container dollies are pointed towards the building and wrapped around the loaders the crew is most likely getting a quick drink of water. If there is equipment but pointed out towards the apron crew is not there to work flight call STOC. No equipment call STOC thats just bad manpower planning and lately we have enough of that . Lets face it as the saying goes (giving manpower the benefit of the doubt) it's like trying to shove 10 pounds of S#!T into a 5 pound bag. By the way most of us if we see a flight on the next gate over will walk over and park it. But by the same token you guys up front don't do us or manpower any favours when you show up 20-25 minutes early because chances are we are still doing a previous flight. Rant over Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Longtimer you are so right the lazy people should get a wake up call but A.C. managers are to lazy them self's our they are gutless and will not make the changes. It's so bad there are people that are so good at avoiding work they plan how to avoid work. one day i'm going to punch a lazy a$$hole in the head that's how &%$@! i'm with that &%$@!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Whoa.......Easy big fella !!!!!! I know plenty of the lazy people who know how to manipulate contracts etc. to be able to avoid work. However, don't let them get the best of you. They are miserable induviduals with miserable little lives. I am still a big believer in the saying, "What comes around goes around!" Unfortunatly sometimes it takes a long time for it to come back to them. Enjoy your life don't worry about what some lazy ars is doing or not doing. They are not worth your frustrations. take it easy, Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Thanks I would not go as far as to hit sombody at work and lose my job but lazy people make me angry at work. Take care Peanuts. The wizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 But by the same token you guys up front don't do us or manpower any favours when you show up 20-25 minutes early because chances are we are still doing a previous flight. You HAVE to be kidding me. Its a 'Wide Body Jet' that has just operated a 12 hour flight, from the other end of the planet. In the most efficient fashion known to man. We ACARS operations with our arrival time. We call them on the radio, in range. We get to the gate and wait 30 minutes for a ground crew. Connections are missed, all the good will that the cabin crew could muster over 12 hours is slowly disappearing. Do you think we should request a hold while we try to find a ground crew? Or just upset everyone on board, after 12 hours, while we sit on the taxiway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I was waiting for someone to chomp on that !!!! Yes Acars that wonderful system that when your at 10,000 doesn't update....so when we check your ETA on the ops screen it will show one time and we think that we just might be able to squeeze time for a "P" call and suddenly your getting called by STOC saying that my flight is on the ground, because ACARS has just updated...don't say that it doesn't happen cause it does. Also let me put this one at you .....since turn around is fair play......we hate it when we are actually standing on the gate in the shade of the building and STOC calls US in a panic saying that the flight is off the gate waiting ..when in fact I can see you going by the gate on Delta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Personally, I have noticed a great improvement of our crews, especially in YZ where it was always the worst. I understand that this has been accomplished with very reduced manpower levels as well. A tribute, at least in part, to our people on the ramp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Thanks Dragon: Sorry for the rant but Im sick of hearing how the guys on the ramp are lazy.....etc..etc... etc... especially when I know that we run our Butts off. I can't speak for other stations all I can talk about is YYZ. Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dash eight Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Easy Wizard. I know what you mean but hopefully given time things will work out and he will get whatys coming to him.. I hear the soupkitchen has added new menu HAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orange Gloves Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 Each station does have people that schedule, coordinate or assign the Ramp manpower on an ongoing “live” basis. I’m a Lead in YVR so not knowing the exact circumstances that day in YYC I won’t comment on your particular flight. But, please remember thing do change and happen quickly in our industry’s day to day (or minute to minute) operation. Just because there appeared to be 10 or more people available 50 minutes prior to “a” departure does not mean they are available at “a” departure. Ramp/Baggage, Maintenance, Stores, GSE, Cargo and Cabin Service all wear the same uniforms. Are we sure those people were Leads or Station Attendants? Thing aren’t always as they appear. I may look “lazy” when I don’t run to the next gate to park an aircraft that is waiting. But, in fact, am trying to get a confirmation from STOC that this aircraft is at the correct gate. (Fleet80, I know you didn’t use “lazy” but others have) If a flight is waiting, something is wrong. A gate change often is the root cause. Parking an aircraft on the wrong gate, as we all know, can snowball into all kinds of grief… delays, fines etc. Taking a few seconds to be sure is a small price to pay to avoid larger problems. Patrick, Mitch, LTV and others have already added good insight to this thread so everyone, please read on. If the Pilots are the last link in the departure chain, the Ramp is the second to last link in the chain. Just because we aren’t ready doesn’t mean we’re the cause/fault of the delay. More often then not, we are reacting to a broken link somewhere else in the chain. Mark Shankland LSA YVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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