Mainline & Regional Pilots at AC

June 9, 2003

Where do you live? NeverNever Land? (Just a joke, nothing harsh intended.)

I'll give you my current perspective on our industry: When someone tells you that such-and-such will never, ever happen, start making contigencies for just such an occurence.

neo

June 9, 2003

I vote for me

I'd sure have alot of fun doing it !

I'd want Mitch and cp fa and maranatha there to help decide as well

DEFCON · June 9, 2003

“why we are the sorriest lot of professionals in this country!!!”

We couldn’t be more in agreement on that point!

I wish we could find an end to all the acrimony and battle that IMO have led to AC’s present situation. The problem though always seems to flow back to the AC pilot’s belief that he is somehow beholden?

I didn’t want or ask AC to purchase my company. I didn’t ask to have my career scoped and I didn’t ask the AC group to merge. At the end of the day Picher produced an award that certainly screwed a number of senior regional types out of many years of service and did not inflict any harm on those of the AC group that were there prior to AC taking up an interest in the various regional carriers. The so called two forty three were largely composed of regional types that jumped the que in the face of a declared merger all with the hope that they might achieve some new advantage over their former colleagues. The remainder of that particular group were simply new family members.

Following the AC pilot’s decision to breach the award hundreds of very junior regional types jumped ship so that they might realize the AC opportunity in spite of the consequences to former their colleagues. The vast majority of these people were young enough so as to be unencumbered by the chains their senior counterparts bore and yet others had the financial backing necessary to support such a move.

Personally, I wanted to fly the DC-9. Instead of realizing that goal the ACPA gave the job to my former colleagues all of whom were generally 15 years my junior in age, experience, and seniority. Today “Nail” casts the bait by suggesting that with a new merger I might someday command a “320” and with a little luck a “67” prior to retirement. That’s precisely the same BS the AC pilots proffered the first time around as they worked to convince us of the benefits related to a merger with them.

Today I ask that you forgive my sarcastic tone however, I won’t sit by and watch our group fall into the same trap again. The junior people at Jazz must understand history or they will be the next senior crowd lamenting the failures of the past. ACPA wants to protect its interests at all costs and in short, that means securing your job for their members.

I believe AC is in its death throws and any creditor with an ounce of sense won’t be throwing more good money after bad to support the continuation of the ACPA line. If someone really wanted to merge lists and it was at all possible, DOH is the only way that’ll work. ACPA would have you believe that an individual with a four year ATP is entitled to a career at the expense of a twenty year CDN or Jazz type. As a pilot I recognize the true importance of seniority and also the difference between ATP’s. The reality is, there is no difference. AC’s CP and many like him only got where they are because of nepotism, not because they even remotely held the base qualifications for the job (an ATP) and many others owe their success to AC’s equity hiring programs.

So ask yourself, why should a CDN or Jazz type have his life discounted by ACPA? I believe a CE followed by the merging of lists on a DOH basis could be achieved should the CDN & Jazz types choose to band together. I am taking a financial pounding today because of ACPA’s never ending BS and I for one would like to see it come to an end.

DEFCON

June 9, 2003

Exactly Mitch.. that seems to be what it's all about. Finding something to make you smile as your wading through it all.

Somedays I wonder if the pendulum will ever swing back that way again, hopefully it will in my life cause there a lot of good people in aviation in Canada. A little stability in everyones life is a good thing.

Cheers from the Halifax Commuters Club

Clumsy

June 9, 2003

Neo,

you said: "If strengthening scope is the best way to go, then the situation that's been created by allowing both pilot groups to bid on the same work also strengthens the pilots' hands to protect work. (Assuming you're correct that AC management would do everything they could to prevent a merged pilot group.) That's because the pilots could then leverage the threat of Common Employer/merged groups for protection of work through scope. The choice presented to management then would be, for example, "Protect our traditional DHC-8 flying our we apply for CE status."

However, the Tier 3 carriers are not even partially owned or controlled by AC so I think Single Employer would be impossible.

As well, the whole concept of mainline pilots going on strike for DHC8 issues might be a stretch. We already have a wide range of issues between the RJ's and 747's.

The main reason I am against it as a solution is that it doesn't solve the problem of spinning of work to lower cost entities. If we had a move-up/down agreement then AC could put the flying where ever they wanted to. AC and Jazz pilots could follow the work whether it was at Jazz, Zip, Zap or whatever without forcing an industrial merger. They've done it at AMR although I admit I don't think its perfect.

June 9, 2003

Cpfa, since you're more the type who can council versus the type who needs councilling, I'm curious as to what you and your husband are now advising your son re: aviation as a profession as I know he was leaning in that direction from your earlier posts. We've got one who is starting out (so too late for him as he's already 'addicted'...with the low wage and all the loans to match ), but the younger one is also leaning in that direction. Ouch!

dozerboy · June 9, 2003

DEFCON,

The only way that this will ever work out for the "betterment" of pilots as a whole is for someone to take the first step. Errors have been made in the past, no doubt about it. But someone, somehow has to get beyond this.

I spent many years at the regional level to finally make the move over to the mainline. I like most of the pilots at AC that I know, did so, not because they believe it was their God-given right to fly for AC, but because they thought that it had potential. After many years at the regional level, things were stagnant. Now we can sit here and argue, and you can blame ACPA for that stagnation, however I honestly believe that when I was at the regional level, we would have done the same and done anything to scope the tier III carriers. I have yet to see any difference between a mainline pilot and a regional pilot, the only difference is that ACPA had the political power.

I say did, because now things have changed under CCAA. The Jazz pilots definately have changed things and it may appear to be in your favour. I am not convinced however that it is. When I was working for CRA, we kept on getting more and more F28's. Many saw that as great, however you reach a "catch 22" situation at one point. The salary was never near enough for the responsibility, however because our salary and benefits were so attractive to the company, the F28's kept on coming.

Now I would hazard to guess that once the euphoria of the potential new aircraft has worn off, the pilots at Jazz will slide into a new sense of reality. That reality being that even though Jazz may have the new aircraft, we as pilots have sunk to a new low. We are beating each other in the race to the bottom.

There is and can only be one benefactor out of this whole deal...and his name is Calin Rovinesceau (sp). We have played right into his hands and continute to do so. If ALPA and ACPA can not come to some type of arrangement to prevent this, it will happen again and again. This man has no scruples. I honestly believe that the next effort of this rapist is to go after the Dash 8's.

Finally, and this rant will be over. Defcon, it may appear that I live with rose coloured glasses, but I have to believe that these rifts can be overcome between the two groups. We have more in common with each other than we do with management. I am sure that we all probably drink the same type of cheap beer. If there is glee at the Jazz level that ACPA finally got what it deserved, try and remember that the 350-400 pilots that are hitting the street had nothing at all to do with the previous ACPA-ALPA acrimony and many could even be your ex co-workers and possibly friends.

Cheers

June 9, 2003

"Will the CIRB be able to state the same given that two employee groups are bidding on the identical flying and equipment? The situation has clearly changed, and consequently the Pineau ruling may have little bearing on a hypothetical future CE application."

That is a good question. But as things sit right now, the answer is No. Since it is not a reality that the two associations are bidding on the same equipment.If or when that does become reality, the creditors and shareholders will be the one doing the decision making on whom will fly what.IMHO.

Mitch Cronin · June 9, 2003

Count me in!

I said before I'd help the two factions within ACPA come to an agreement for the small price of a cottage on a lake (or was it a Ferrari? No matter, either will do!)... same deal with these two groups!

DEFCON · June 9, 2003

Dozerboy

Thank you for the considered response.

“The only way that this will ever work out for the "betterment" of pilots as a whole is for someone to take the first step. Errors have been made in the past, no doubt about it. But someone, somehow has to get beyond this.”

I completely agree however and if it’s not already too late, I believe it’s the ACPA that must take that first step as it’s ACPA that’s been out to minimize the seniority of all others.

”I spent many years at the regional level to finally make the move over to the mainline. I like most of the pilots at AC that I know, did so, not because they believe it was their God-given right to fly for AC, but because they thought that it had potential. After many years at the regional level, things were stagnant. Now we can sit here and argue, and you can blame ACPA for that stagnation, however I honestly believe that when I was at the regional level, we would have done the same and done anything to scope the tier III carriers. I have yet to see any difference between a mainline pilot and a regional pilot, the only difference is that ACPA had the political power.”

I can appreciate your opinion however, as an ex-CRA type your relationship with CDN although not perfect was considerably fairer that ours has been with the ACPA. As you know, my group merged the four red tails together with CRA and it was all on a DOH basis. The red tails didn’t get their knickers in a knot over the blue tails potential. Instead, we chose to proceed forward and treat our former competition with the respect and fairness they deserved. Can ACPA say that?

”I say did, because now things have changed under CCAA. The Jazz pilots definately have changed things and it may appear to be in your favour. I am not convinced however that it is.”

I agree, nothing is final until such time as it is absolutely final! We’re not there yet!

“ When I was working for CRA, we kept on getting more and more F28's. Many saw that as great, however you reach a "catch 22" situation at one point. The salary was never near enough for the responsibility, however because our salary and benefits were so attractive to the company, the F28's kept on coming. Now I would hazard to guess that once the euphoria of the potential new aircraft has worn off, the pilots at Jazz will slide into a new sense of reality. That reality being that even though Jazz may have the new aircraft, we as pilots have sunk to a new low. We are beating each other in the race to the bottom.”

For certain, I think we’re all on our way down however, the opportunity to fly new metal for the same coin I get today is attractive for many reasons. By virtue of the ACPA doctrine the only other option available is to let ACPA have their way, again. Although I’m not in disagreement with your supposition it would be my opinion that my colleagues and I having no other choice will do whatever it takes to secure our collective futures. You see, essentially nothing except the airplane size changes for us and that’s not likely to be much of a problem for the vast majority of Jazz pilots.

”There is and can only be one benefactor out of this whole deal...and his name is Calin Rovinesceau (sp). We have played right into his hands and continute to do so. If ALPA and ACPA can not come to some type of arrangement to prevent this, it will happen again and again. This man has no scruples. I honestly believe that the next effort of this rapist is to go after the Dash 8's.”

I’m not really sure what to make of the guy however, I don’t believe he ever understood the business much like the man who hired him. They were charged or responsible for the management of this charade known as AC. As should now be abundantly clear to all, they have failed miserably at their fiduciary task. As employees of AC the various employee groups including management enjoy a vicarious relationship. In reality though, you or I can be terminated for screwing up. When the senior management screw up you and I still get fired however and unfortunately, they walk away with a handsome? package and we, well we just walk away. Does anyone really want to give them another chance to mess it up again?

”Finally, and this rant will be over. Defcon, it may appear that I live with rose coloured glasses, but I have to believe that these rifts can be overcome between the two groups. We have more in common with each other than we do with management. I am sure that we all probably drink the same type of cheap beer.”

I too believe the rifts may be overcome although I’m not certain that the hour hasn’t passed during which we collectively might have reached a resolve. The “final solution” that will certainly determine our separate and collective fates is coming and sadly, will now be decided upon by persons external to the company.

“If there is glee at the Jazz level that ACPA finally got what it deserved, try and remember that the 350-400 pilots that are hitting the street had nothing at all to do with the previous ACPA-ALPA acrimony and many could even be your ex co-workers and possibly friends.”

I’m truly sorry that anyone has to be let go however, layoffs are a reality of the business. Perhaps the future will bring great things to all concerned.

DEFCON

DEFCON · June 9, 2003