Kip Powick Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 It is truly amazing to read some of these threads. On one hand we have the AC team stating, quite categorically, that they know they are in trouble but will come out of the “fog of restructuring” a better company but with less $$ in their pockets. Naturally that remains to be seen. On the other hand you have those “other guys”, (and there is no point in being specific, as anonymity rules) saying, and I think with a hint of wishful ness, that AC is about to be liquidated. While one would hope the “other guys” are happy with the company of their choosing, I find it rather odd that some of these individuals forecasting and perhaps “hoping” for the second shoe to fall for AC are the same people that, if the unthinkable happened, would be the first authors to post bleeding heart drivel, and “praying” that everyone does well in their “next” chosen career. It is also interesting to note that some of the more respected posters of the “other guys” have not stooped to the “mud slinging, wish you well as I twist the knife,” type of rhetoric. In my opinion, these fellows have shown their professional mettle by refraining from joining some of their rather child like peers in constant pot stirring. Well-done fellows. And, yes perhaps you think it is all in good fun, the jousting under the cover of anonymity,…….. but for those of you that have never been in this position, that being, possibly out of work through no fault of your own, it is not a pleasant experience. I would strongly suggest you think before you hit the “post” button, and by all means, post to your hearts content, but do try to show a little respect for your fellow professionals. He who slings mud generally loses ground…. Adlai Stevenson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Amen to all you said Kip. I guess I don't have to read certain posts but I always read yours! Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 We all know for one reason or another Air Canada will not be liquidated. But my question is how would you fix the problems at Air Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 You HIPOCRITE!!! You just called me 'Junior' and told me hold my breath in a post down below just because you didn't agree with my opinion. Unbelieveable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I assume I am quite a bit older than you but I guess I was wrong on that point. If you felt that using "junior" is slinging mud well I guess you got me - guilty as charged. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 And actually I suggested that you not hold your breath whilst waiting for AC to liquidate but then I thought better of that thought and that holding it might be better - again guilty as charged. But then again my suggesting that you do or don't hold your breath is in a different category than your unrestrained cheering for the liquidation of my company (in my hypocritical opinion) PS I wish you long healthy and happy career but like a watched pot it really won't happen if you're waiting for us to fold... Chico Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 You know what I meant. It's not what you say it's the way you say it. If you have valid argument to present to my posts please do, otherwise I can do without the 'Junior' stuff. By the way my post are opinion not prophecy or wishfull thinking. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 18, 2003 Author Share Posted April 18, 2003 If I could fix it, I would be a rich man. I would not presume to know how to fix it. We, the airframe drivers, look at an airline job with a bit of a parochial view, and that is to be expected after all that is our job, fly safe and run a crew to the best of our abilities. Unless one really takes the time, and it appears the difficulty for many is finding the time, we don’t really see “all” the little things that can be changed to make the company more efficient and cost effective. There has been much talk of the business “model”. Really……how many airframe drivers ever consider that part of the equation….we just drive the airplanes…but perhaps it is time we, as well as all employees, took a little more interest in the changing world and had our opinions considered more seriously by management. We pilots tend to work in semi isolation and only bitch about the things that directly affect “our” operation and get pretty “hot” about inefficiencies we see from our side of the equation. I would be first to admit that I don’t know what every AME does, every agent does, every “ramp rat” does, nor do I know his or her work rules and problems that they may or may not perceive. Indeed, it is a very complex puzzle and although there are many good suggestions, on this and other forums, the problem is implementing the easy fixes quickly. We have a preponderance of CYA individuals out there and a great many of “it’s not my job” individuals who bog down the smooth running of a great machine. I don’t think AC has operated in a vacuum for all these years but in my opinion there has been a reluctance to move with the times and to so very quickly. I have used this expression before, I know it is not popular with many, but based on AC’s history I feel that there are many who still advocate, “what was good enough for my grandfather and good enough for my father, is good enough for me”. Needless to say the flying business has changed dramatically in the past 3 years and it would seem that low-co has the upper hand in many venues. One of the main reasons for the success of low-co is the low cost of the operation in total. AC has not met that goal yet and I think CCAA is a step in that direction. I truly believe that you either join in the parade, as reluctant as you may be, or you just become a bystander with memories of what used to be, and you can’t feed a family with memories. What shape or form will AC eventually become……… I have no idea, but there will be changes and they will be painful but do the employees of AC really have much of a choice????? I don’t think so and I would suggest that instead of utilizing the 3 D’s, Deny, Distort, and Deflect, they put all their energy into constructive dialogue between unions/management/employees and WORK for the betterment of all. “The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary.” V.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ABC Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Okay, Kip, then sum it up. Are you "happy" to be retired from this quagmire? Or do you believe that the seniority between the pilots at CAIL and AC SHOULD be revisited? Any comments on pilots at Jazz? In your opinion, would it be better for the pilots at the merged AC (CAIL and original AC) to include or exclude Jazz pilots? Perhaps it might be better for the company to keep these units seperate. Perhaps combined would be better. Over to you for some thoughtful comments.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I totally agree with your reply. I'm just one of many who loves to discuss problems and fix the world on those long flights to the far east. I do believe that constructive dialogue is the answer and as you know it starts in the cockpit and moves to forums like this one. Hopefully a manager or some other person of authority peruses forums like this one and finds an answer. Take care. CPDude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 "I do believe that constructive dialogue is the answer and as you know it starts in the cockpit and moves to forums like this one" Well, that's quite the opinion of ones humble profession and position............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 "I totally agree with your reply. I'm just one of many who loves to discuss problems and fix the world on those long flights to the far east. I do believe that constructive dialogue is the answer and as you know it starts in the cockpit and moves to forums like this one." The reason that you have the time to discuss this is that you sit for many hours with nothing to do but watching the machine do its job, while the rest of the airline gets on with life. Flame Away!!! Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 18, 2003 Author Share Posted April 18, 2003 ((The reason that you have the time to discuss this is that you sit for many hours with nothing to do but watching the machine do its job, while the rest of the airline gets on with life.)) Knowing you as I do, I trust that is a tongue in cheek statement:) A few of the things I don’t miss are the constant time zone changes, the bi annual Sim rides, the bi annual medicals, the hotels, the weather problems, snarly pax, snarly F/As, grumpy and disenchanted pilots, (yes there are many out there), all these things get on one nerves. Not every flight is a “picnic”. Waking up and not knowing where the hell you are, the missed days/nites with your family and the constant check rides as well as the endless changes to procedures one thought they had wired. Screw up one facet of your training/flying/checking/medical and your career could be over, it isn’t all : rotate, plug “George” in, relax for 6-10 hours, unplug “George”,flare, hotel and party….....not by a long shot. Yes there are perqs when one becomes a front ender but I am sure you must realize that it is not as easy as it looks and I will admit there are some hours of sitting and just monitoring, but in the end, someone has to do it and when it all turns to puppy-poo , you know who carries the can. It takes a lot of personal energy just to keep it all together and is extremely hard on the body….just take a look at some of the “grey ghosts” that launch at night for those long haul overseas flights. It is not as easy and as glamorous as many are lead to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Kip: Your right some of it is tongue in cheek(I will admitt that I do have some friends such as yourself that sit in the front end).....but don't let that out from under your hat. But at the same time we ....you know who WE are have taken a lot of heat on the board from the front enders , because all they see is that we are not at the gate when they show up 10 mins early. The factors of bad planning (done by management) shortage of manpower(caused by management) no general plan in place (done by management) and a general lack of......wait for it..........management cause those who sit in the front end to flame away at those who are scrambling to recover . As I have said before on this board , I give management credit in one thing......and that is they are good in the cause and effect of DIVIDE and CONQUER. Cheers Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 18, 2003 Author Share Posted April 18, 2003 OK, I will concede that part of the problem is management but do you not think that there is also a bit of "you can't do my job" because the union says it's mine. The example that comes to mind is what you have brought up....... waiting for a marshalling crew. OK they are busy somewhere else, I'll buy that, BUT...why can't one of the other guys standing around waiting for the "Lead/crew" marshall the aircraft in.... The answer...cause it's not in his terms of reference. Now I don't want to demean anyones job, but I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to marshall in an aircraft but for reasons that escape me, it seems that this individual is the only one that can do that...why????? Don't for a minute think a capable pilot is going to put his aircraft in harms way but cripes the majority of pilots know if they have clearance to put the bird in the slot. If in doubt...they should wait but we waste so damned much time/fuel waiting for a "qualified" marshaller that it is pathetic operstion, in my opinion a SAMFU. And while I am on the rant...why do we need three guys to marshall an aircraft in??? Why does a "rampie" have to put the bridge on??? Can't an agent do that(then at least there would be more motivation for the agent to meet the aircraft). In my mind, as simple as it is, there is just too many damned empires within the kingdom....end of rant 1 Alpha Time to either thin the ranks or at least overlap functions to a degree ensuring that safety is not compromised...and yes it can be done...many airlines do it already. As always, just an opinion from away out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Of course if the person who is just standing around does marshall in the aircraft and it hits something, then they will be held responsible for performing a duty that they are not trained to perform. The only answer IMO is to train all ramp staff in this procedure and give all the ability to perform the duty based on first there...... Too simple of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Maybe, . . . just maybe, you should have been a pilot frosty. Easy job, nothin to it really, just sit there and watch the machine do it. Matter of fact, sometimes I wonder why we have pilots at all? Your hate on for all pilots is boring, got any other thoughts in your brain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 SO so so sooooooooo many problems! Frosty, have you ever really sat and thought? Have you ever really thought to yourself, How could I/WE, do our jobs better, regardless of what those god dam pilots are doing to f**k everything up.. Two guys standing there, blocks of wood on the ground, another guy walking out of the lunchroom, waiting, waiting, waiting ,... a few minutes later some guy on a tug shows up, walks over putting his vest on, realizes the wands are still on the tug, finally marshals the airplane in, just to wait for someone to drive the bridge on to let our happy customers off. If you don't think it happens then come with me on a day of rapidairs. If you think there is no way to improve then you are on your own.. Please stop with your ridiculous and incomplete analysis of pilots. See, if there is you calling me an arrogant dick and I calling you a lazy &%$@!, nobody wins. If we realize that within our communities there are both good and bad then we are farther ahead. Believe me, Kip and I are not the only cool pilots in the world, I sense that if for no other reason than your passion here, you are not a sit around guy either. Problems solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 18, 2003 Author Share Posted April 18, 2003 ((The reason that you have the time to discuss this is that you sit for many hours with nothing to do but watching the machine do its job, while the rest of the airline gets on with life.)) Knowing you as I do, I trust that is a tongue in cheek statement A few of the things I don’t miss are the constant time zone changes, the bi annual Sim rides, the bi annual medicals, the hotels, the weather problems, snarly pax, snarly F/As, grumpy and disenchanted pilots, (yes there are many out there), all these things get on one nerves. Not every flight is a “picnic”. Waking up and not knowing where the hell you are, the missed days/nites with your family and the constant check rides as well as the endless changes to procedures one thought they had wired. Screw up one facet of your training/flying/checking/medical and your career could be over, it isn’t all : rotate, plug “George” in, relax for 6-10 hours, unplug “George”,flare, hotel and party….....not by a long shot. Yes there are perqs when one becomes a front ender but I am sure you must realize that it is not as easy as it looks and I will admit there are some hours of sitting and just monitoring, but in the end, someone has to do it and when it all turns to puppy-poo , you know who carries the can. It takes a lot of personal energy just to keep it all together and is extremely hard on the body….just take a look at some of the “grey ghosts” that launch at night for those long haul overseas flights. It is not as easy and as glamorous as many are led to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Dragon: I do not have a hate for pilots. Sometimes things are posted in order to provoke a response(can't deny that you haven't done that also) I just want to point out to the pilot group that we on the ramp are not knuckle dragging mouth breathers and ignorant savages...."I am not an animal" Cheers Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Dragon: This is the second time that Im trying to get this across first message was consigned to cyber space somewhere.....so here goes. As I am one of the guys that flaps my arms in the air at you guys I can only answer for my very small piece of the puzzle , I have gone from an active flight over to the next gate to park an early arr, again that is me.....I can only answer for myself and my crew for the 8 hours that I have them. Now to defend management here with manpower planning (yes i can speak from that chair as I have sat there) we plan with a certain amount of risk management everything is plotted on the blocks with sked arr and dept times in place . The planners hope that something gives during the shift so that everything will work usually happens but sometimes it doesn't. We have been cut on the ramp to the point where the crews are running from gate to gate sometimes the lead or the members of the crew are rounding up equipment....risk management involved with amount of equipment out there also. So all I can say is that all is not as it appears. I agree about having sales put the bridge on the acft they are there waiting anyhow why should I loose a member of my 3 man crew to put a bridge on when we could be getting the bags off. There has to be change....but as I have said before everyone should be working together on this. As for the situation you or Kip have described I personally find it disgusting and as I have said I can only answer for myself in that particular situation , one would hope that the offending crew was talked to by management but often enough a blind eye is turned . Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Frosty: With all due respect. You only ever see the YYZ operation. I fly into 15 different airports per month and we NEVER have the problems that we have at our home airport. The ramp crews wait for the airplane rather than the airplane waiting for the ramp crews. It works even in irregular ops. I have said it before even the United pilots have commented to me (unsolicited) regarding the abomination that is our YYZ ramp. I am sure someone is trying but they don't seem to be winning the war. Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Labtec: Your right the Ramp in YYZ is a mess I agree with you ...again as I have said some of the problems we face are self induced in YYZ manpower has been an ongoing battle since I started in the 80's. I will be the first to admit we have a problem. An example of how things were and are done. I looked at my block of flights and in doing so I look at what gates and times these flights are on. I saw a problem and I phoned the manpower manager to tell him as such.(problem I was on gte 71 and had a dept there DC9....next arr was at gate 107 2 mins after the DC9 was to push) now I just mentioned the logisticts of this to him and his response was " if your counting flights I can always put more on there" needless to say the DC-9 on 107 sat for approx.7 mins while my crew and I made our way down to the gate. Next point when Cp came over to us...I kindly pointed out to my manpower planner at the time when I started my shift 0530 that there were 5 conflicts on my block before 0900 . He looked at me as if to say "who are you to tell me to do my job" I asked him if he would like them pointed out to him he said no. While I was working the morning jumbo to NRT as first crew my manager asked ver the radio who had the east cost DC9 out at 0900 he was told I did I told him I was still working the jumbo and that I had said I had a conflict. BUT NO ACTION WAS TAKEN. So yes I will admit there is a problem , and when you are dealing with this kind of stupidity everyday you get knocked down slowly but surely, and yes I know that with recent events a general apothey(sp) has set in , but remember some of us still try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Sure sounds like bad management to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfhunter Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 In large organizations there is a real need for operational managers to maintain a level of proficiency in the field they are directly supervising. These folks should be working the ramp on occasion even if it’s just to fill in for someone who called in sick. Some (actually all) of the best military supervisors I’ve met did this as a matter of course and there was no fooling them on such basic issues. Supervisors at all levels need to sprinkle a pinch of sand in the four corners of their respective kingdoms twice a day… just like in the fable. Failure to do so leads to the very problems you described. Supervisors read the fable prior to your next shift! In my experience, good enough usually translates to slightly better than unacceptable. Slightly better than unacceptable will not carry the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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