Merger route map

[Guest FL410]

Why Date of Hire (DOH)? Because it is the ONLY method that supports “last hired, first fired” creed. ALL other methods of seniority list construction do NOT support it.

What is preventing a merger from happening?

The “243”… They feel that they have been “short-changed” by having to give up all their “regional” seniority in order to go to the mainline.

The “CAIL” part of the list… They feel that since they have been “bottomed out” that they have the right to expect that all other joiners should be “bottomed out” as well.

Fear that by merging, some may loose credibility. Hopefully, that fear should now be replaced with maintaining a job at all. It does not take a smart person to see that while the unions fight over the spoils from the single employers table, that the corporation is the true winner.

How to move forward?

For the “243”, give them back their DOH with their respective connectors. Because they are now no longer a unique case (ex-CRA), give back all pilots who came at a connector their original DOH. This list must also include prior mergers on the CAIL part of the list.

Reconstruct the seniority lists to reflect a DOH and make it effective at some point in the future. Pledge that all future mergers will be DOH for the reasons of “last hired, first fired”.

Concurrent with a DOH list, endorse a status pay system to help the corporation out with this. Freeze those in current positions with a CONTROLLED thaw.

Either do this or live like teenagers thinking they know it all and yet have nothing.

As far as the litigation is concerned, It only involves minorities on both sides. Why would the majority want the minority to overrule common sense?

Sincerely,

410

[Mitch Cronin]

If I may... I don't think that would ever work, since much of the hiring was done at chicken$hit little outfits while a lot of the rest was done at majors.

Eg: Fred, a Jazz pilot with 15 years was hired by Wings-R-Us feeder when he had 1000 hrs instructing... But George, a mainline pilot with 10 years was hired by Air Canada when he had 5000 hrs., including 5 years flying for one of Wing-R-Us's now defunct competitors.

Your DoH then would see Fred - who started flying the smallest birds Wing-R-Us had at the same time George was climbing out of Dash 8's to go to AC - senior to George.

Maybe too convoluted an attempt to simplify, but I think it illustrates the wrongs that could easily occur.

[Guest George]

Maybe you should tell Mr Paul Lordon at the CIRB your learned point of view. He heard all the arguements you made and 1000 other ones, and he agreed with Mr Morton Mitchnick, that a ratio method was the only viable method for merging AC and CAI.

Every case is unique and the moment you say "it has to be donw this way" someone is going to get shafted. Even ALPA south of the border has five major points for merging lists, and DOH isn't one of them.

[milehighclub]

Hi 410,
I would like to add something to what you just wrote: Just imagine how much leverage we, as a group, could have ! If JAZZ gets most of tier 3, flying the Beech + what's depicted in our LOU = very strong futur hiring ... So, if ACPA becomes ALPA and we can work it out together, there would be NO lay off AT ALL. And above all, we would be ONE bargaining agent when dealing with management. Does this look to rosy or can we really make it happens ?

MHC
p.s. "Why would the majority want the minority to overrule common sense? "
It seems to be the "canadian way" of doing things...

[Guest JW]

Mitch:

>>Your DoH then would see Fred - who started flying the smallest birds Wing-R-Us had at the same time George was climbing out of Dash 8's to go to AC - senior to George.<<

You've got a pretty good grasp of the situation. That was the basis of the Picher award.

In my opinion, the merger between the, then, feeder airlines and mainline could have happened, way back when, under a number of conditions and opportunities. The selection of dates for the DOH claim prior to the establishment of the "feeder", then connector handle, was an impediment. Using a date that one started on the dock or flying a float plane for White River Air Services was just not going to happen. It could have been used for internal seniority ranking, but any date prior to creation of the AC subsidiary (approx 1985) was just not going to happen.

The "proposed" list showed a connector pilot, Twin Otter at the time I believe, as capable of holding 747 position in the DOH.

DOH was dismissed in Picher. Bottom of the list was offered many times, but the target kept moving. All of the people of the Picher time would now have the opportunity to be 320 Captains by a number of those offers.

Even mentioning DOH will be make starting the discussions that much harder, imo, and I DO support the notion of list integration despite the incredible events of the past week.

...imo!

JW

[Par88]

Ratio the DOH.....ie; From the time AC purchased all or a portion of the Wings-R-Us flying service. By that time Wings-R-Us had come out of the bush and become a legitimate part of the AC family.
I was floating this around a few years back and most just shrugged their shoulders and said Hmmmm.
eg. Hired in 67' by Wings....purchased by AC in 84'.....DOH is now 84' with YOS of 67'. All flowed pilots get their original DOH and YOS back.
Comments?......Additions??.....

[sustainable]

I have pilots on the AC list that came over from the AC connector flow through who weren't old enough to hold a commercial license when I was flying the 737 at Canadian. How do you sort that out?

[Mitch Cronin]

If the interest shown by all sides here is any indication, I'd say it looks like there's enough interest to make it happen. It certainly would seem beneficial to all, but It'll take a huge effort to sort out the variety of situations into something all could agree to.

[Seeker]

Jim, why do you say you "support the notion of list integration despite the incredible events of the past week. " Don't you mean you support this concept BECAUSE of the incredible events of the past week?

seeker

[Guest fasteddy]

Hi Mitch...it can't happen because all the lawyers will protest loss of future earnings due to no "whipsaw" grievances to settle...Cheers Ed

[Seeker]

Jim, why do you say you "support the notion of list integration DESPITE the incredible events of the past week. " Don't you mean you support this concept BECAUSE of the incredible events of the past week?

seeker

[Guest GDR]

Hi Jim

I know have run this by the forum recently, but I still think that there is only one way to put the lists together that does not negatively impact anyone currently on either list.

Maintain a mainline list that tail ends all the connector pilots, and maintain a JAZZ list that tail ends all mainline pilots. Anyone hired off the street will go to the bottom of both lists regardless of whether they are hired at the aminline or at JAZZ.

It is simple, doesn't effect anyone who doesn't want to move. It gives an opportunity for JAZZ pilots to go to mainline when a position opens up that suits them, and over time it will give mainline pilots some lay off protection.

As I said earlier there is no negative impact for anyone on either list. The only person who faces a downside is someone hired off the street to the mainline in what looks to be the distant future will now be slotted in behind all the regional pilots.

Greg Robinson

[Guest Terminated]

Hey GDR,

I stand with you in support of the plan you describe. It is the simplest, and no one gets hurt. Everybody comes up with all sorts of highly complicated and controversial options, which require all sorts of wrangling to work out the details, when I believe the best solution is also the simplest. Apparently you and I are the smartest people on this board, even though we can't convince everybody else of our plan

The big problem now though, is that it won't solve the current conflict over the mid size flying. Both groups would rather see the flying on their property, and I don't know how to fix that. But at least the 'double BOTL' plan will put us on our way to keeping us from repeating these problems in the future.

[Guest CJ]

You seem like one of the most genuine people in your desire to see this work for both groups. We can only hope the rest of the parties involved can get past their history. This has to stop now. DOH from this day forward.

[Guest Kal]

Jim:

I think if you have it you should reread Picher. It wasn't a DOH list. Their was a list produced by the AC pilots that was incorrect and used to panis the herd .

-Picher endtailed the ACR behind the last AC pilot hired in 1980

- there was no hiring at AC after 1980 until 1985 until

-the regionals (ZX & GX) were were aquired in 1985

So if I read you correctly the conditions under which you would have found a merge at the time acceptable were met.


To bad the propoganda of the time got tin the way of facts.

[Guest Kal]

Jim:

I think if you have it, you should reread Picher. It wasn't a DOH list. There was an incorrect list produced at the time by the AC pilots that was incorrect and used to panic the herd .

-Picher endtailed the ACR's behind the last AC pilot hired in 1980

- there was no hiring at AC after 1980 until 1985

-the regionals (ZX & GX) were were aquired in 1985

-in no way could a senior ACR pilot of the time of the award ( 146 Capt) hold anything other than an at best an RJ capt seat.

So if I read you correctly, the conditions under which you would have found a merge at the time acceptable were met.


To bad the propoganda of the time got in the way of the facts.

[Guest fasteddy]

Hi Kal...you are correct...the Picher award put the regional pilots behind PJ O'Hare.

[Guest FL410]

Hello Mitch,

“If I may... I don't think that would ever work, since much of the hiring was done at chicken$hit little outfits while a lot of
the rest was done at majors”.

You seem to think that your seniority at your job is worth more than someone’s else seniority is to them at their job. It’s precisely that kind of attitude that will keep this profession doomed. For as long as you claim that your job is more important to you than their job is to them, you will NEVER see the merit of ONE pool of employees working for ONE employer. Just why should your seniority be worth more? Try and keep in mind… “last hired, first fired”.

“Eg: Fred, a Jazz pilot with 15 years was hired by Wings-R-Us feeder when he had 1000 hrs instructing... But George, a mainline pilot with 10 years was hired by Air Canada when he had 5000 hrs., including 5 years flying for one of Wing-R-Us's now defunct competitors”.

First of all you are talking about two concepts in the same sentence… pilot experience the other work history. Pilot experience has nothing to do with seniority. What IS important though is the fact that there was a merger with Fred’s company while there was not with George’s company. Do not confuse equipment experience for DOH. Because George worked for a company that was NOT merged George can only count on his DOH with an affected company.

”Your DoH then would see Fred - who started flying the smallest birds Wing-R-Us had at the same time George was climbing out of Dash 8's to go to AC - senior to George”.

Again, It is not about flying experience. We all know that each of us are just a ground school and sim ride away from each other’s type rating. And yes, according to the Fred/George scnenario, Fred who was in an affected company would end up being senior to George.

I do appreciate the sincerity of your post
A fellow pilot,
FL410

[Guest FL410]

“Ratio the DOH.....ie; From the time AC purchased all or a portion of the Wings-R-Us flying service. By that time Wings-R-Us had come out of the bush and become a legitimate part of the AC family”.
To Ratio the DOH is to water down the principle of “last hired, first fired”. If wing’s-R-Us did not bring value to the AC Corp they would not have been acquired. The reasons for the acquisition are not the domain of the pilot, but of management. The only important fact is that the two DID merge. Whether it started out in the bush or flying space shuttles in not important.
There may have been a time where you HAD to be a big macho man in order to fly airplanes. Time have changed and we all know that you now do NOT need to be a big macho man. …It is time to leave the big macho means of merging and move on.

”I was floating this around a few years back and most just shrugged their shoulders and said Hmmmm”.
When merging companies, it is not about one’s age, it is about the value you as a pilot bring to the company. Your value as a pilot is no greater than the value of another pilot at another company.

”eg. Hired in 67' by Wings....purchased by AC in 84'.....DOH is now 84' with YOS of 67'. All flowed pilots get their original DOH and YOS back.
Comments?......Additions??.....”
That is a one sided argument assuming that AC is always the purchasing company. I am SURE that you would not feel the same way if United thought the same way about Air Canada.

Regards,
FL410

[Guest FL410]

I have pilots on the AC list that came over from the AC connector flow through who weren't old enough to hold a commercial license when I was flying the 737 at Canadian. How do you sort that out?
…sorry, but if they are not old enough to hold a commercial licence, how is that they would be senior without being pilots?

The “youngsters” would get their DOH at their from the connector days, providing that they were an affected company. Your seniority would still obviously predate that.

FL410

[Mitch Cronin]

Years of service with piddlly little birdies doesn't equate to years of service at a mainline carrier, no matter who merged with who.

...and ahhh...
..uhh ...
Ahhh heck, someone else tell 'im, will ya? I'm tired of having to straighten that out.

[.70 mach]

Greg,

Good points for some starting ground for all of us I think. But the problem that might arise out of all of this is, what happens if Jazz is successful in acquiring all aircraft up to 110 seats as per the bidding process with the court-appointed monitor.

The growth for the "new plan" is in the smaller jets 110 seats and below. Jazz could have then a fleet of 187 aircraft ( 219 if you count the 32 B1900's for this argument I never ). An increase from the 93 we operate now. So with almost doubling our fleet our most junior member will be Captain and say for example someone 800 up or more the mainline list could be sitting right seat Dash for a long time till either attrition or expansion catches up . In my opinion not fair.

My example of say a "narrow body" Captain at AC is ten years ( just guessing for this posting ) then draw the line in the sand and ratio us from that point forward. No fairy tales of Jazz Dash captains then becoming 340 captains on the next bid. Set the fences to protect everyone's career expectations with a certain amount of time and live with it.
Comments anyone?

[Guest Kal]

Hi Eddy:

Couple of things about all this still amaze me.

People are being sued about this event that still don't know what it was about. They obviouisly based their decisions and actions on seriously flawed perceptions.

It was all there in black and white ( Picher's supplemental award made it crystal clear) yet the propogandists won the day.

I truly hope that those folks are held accountable for the fear and loathing that they generated to advance their own interests.


Twin Otter pilots "parachuting"into a seat on a 747,,,,what nonsense.

Unfortunately even to this day people still believe it.

Take care

[Guest CJ]

Years of service with piddly little birdies.....What makes a pilot flying a dash 8 or a 146 for Air Canada's bottom line less worthy. The 50 passengers on a dash 8 have to have the same faith in the pilot as one flying a 320. DUH. Its only a type difference...that's it. Equal respect for all pilots. Its not such a difficult concept. Could someone else explain that to him ...AGAIN.

[Don Hudson]

CJ;

I am not in disagreement with the way this needs to go. But quite a number of issues need to be thought out and worked with.

Re your comment, "DOH from this day forward."

If I might ask, what do you mean by DoH, because it has many different meanings, depending upon one's history and experience? Tx, CJ.

Don H.