For Don Hudson

[deicer]

Don

I am addressing this to you in the hope that others can pick up on the message.

After our interaction discussing Neoliberalism several months ago, I find it interesting that nobody else really seems to see the "Big Picture" as to why we are really in the situation that we are now.

It has very little to do with SARS, the Iraq war, and all the other excuses that are being used.

We all complain about our piece of the world but in my estimation where we are all started about 10 years ago with the start of the Tech Bubble. The statement from Greenspan in the States warning of "irrational exuberance" has turned into the understatement of the century!

Too many people made too much money on paper, and now it is coming back to haunt them. The paper pyramid scheme has collapsed. Without the illusion of moving forward that was created by the CEO's of corporations such as Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, Nortel, Etc,,, there is no impetus in the financial world to put money back into the hands of people who will spend it and drive the economy forward.

That is why it was reported in the spring that $45 BILLION dollars of Canadian RRSP money has been put into secure holdings instead of the markets because people have become very afraid of losing MORE of what they have worked for. IMHO that is why the pension issue has become the main focus, not only for Air Canada, but for other Corporations including the Government(as highlighted in recent newspaper articles).

The jobs we have are dissappearing because the work can be done elsewhere cheaper while the paper pushers on Wall Street count their profits without regard to the unemployement numbers.

People should think about that when they drive their car made in Korea or Japan, wear clothes made in India, check the time on their Taiwanese watch while watching a Japanese television. Or when the heavy mtc on the aircraft they fly on to their cheap vacation in South America has been done in Indonesia.

The Americans have started to realise this and that is why you are starting to see them pull back and nationalise their industries. It's starting with how they are lowering their dollar to make foreign products more expensive, pulling back auto and steel production to within their borders, and by spending more on Defense which keeps the money spent at home.

Canada needs to wake up and realise this as well before we find ourselves with our collective pants down.

So when people want foreign competition because of the perception of it being cheaper, they should really think of where the money is being spent and who will really profit from it.

In closing to tie this in with the AC situation, I'd like to point out my view that we all have to take HUGE hits at this point, but it is better to live to fight another day and try to improve from there. But....

It is more important to realise why we are here and live our lives accordingly.

Thanks for your time...

Iceman

[Guest]

"In closing to tie this in with the AC situation, I'd like to point out my view that we all have to take HUGE hits at this point, but it is better to live to fight another day and try to improve from there."

This reakes of the IAM mantra for their constant failures.We in maintenance have a saying also,"it is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

[Guest dashedexpectations]

That's a bit of a "kamakaze" like saying don't you think Robert. Those pilots sure died on their feet but history bore that they would not have had to live on their knees.

I'm with Don and surmised the same some time ago.

[deicer]

Robert

If you have no job it affects more than just the airline. Think of all the industries that rely on your paycheque.

Sure, we could cause a major shutdown of the Canadian airline industry, but where would that lead us?

Even the GTAA realises how bad things are and have been handing out $5 coupons to pax for spending in the shops and restaurants. The merchants can then turn them in to reduce their rent for the month. Do you think the GTAA got the picture? Better to give up some now than to lose it all....

To think of others, if AC is shut down, then there is no future, but if the cuts are made now, then there is always rehiring and growth.(Isn't that why you cut back rose bushes in the fall, for new growth in the spring?)

This situation sucks,,,it really SUCKS!!!

If you see it as being that desparate, then my suggestion is to put the gun in your mouth and pull because it will never get better for you.

However, there are those of us out here that believe that it will get better. It's nature's Law that everything has a natural cycle and that new growth will happen.

Iceman

[cp fa]

Deicer, would you mind reposting your answer, minus the second last paragraph. I'm sure you didn't mean anything derogatory by it, but considering the level of stress some employees are experiencing, I don't think that comment is appropriate.

Thanks.

[Guest]

Deicer, you are an arrogant SOB, take your own advice.
As to AC, they are in a pickle, that there is no doubt, but this new contract is as I stated a result of the IAM's failings once again, it is another anti maintenance contract.Station loses 1.5% plus paid lunch, we in maintenance lose 1.5%, paid lunch, endorsement premium,taxi premium,tank entry premium, mid shift premium (majority of maintenance works mids),license premium, we now have to work an 11 hour day, no more tools on payroll (SPECIALTY TOOLS THAT ARE AN ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT ARE NOT CHEAP AND AC DOES NOT SUPPLY).The kicker of it all, we in maintenance were already below industry average, now we make a fair bit less that West Jet, Trans AT,Skyservice, etc etc, where as you, are still far ahead of your nearest competitor, boy this sounds real fair.Oh fyi, the 1400 new layoffs, 800 plus will be maintenance, again, so that will put us at 2200 this year, as opposed to the 108 for station in the last round, and maybe 600 this round, and then you people wonder why we in maintenance want out of the IAM. IT WILL BE A NO VOTE.

Regards
The Sacrificial Lamb

[conehead]

What will become of all those poor production workers at the Molson plant in Toronto, and their families?

[deicer]

I put that line in and I will stand behind it because unfortunately everyday I run into people like Robert who unfortunately always see the glass as half empty.

As I said above, this situation really sucks, and alot of people will run into hardships, BUT...

For those of us who look forward to seeing the sun come up every day, why should we tolerate those who only see negatives?

I've never deemed to be politically correct, and I'm not about to change. So if Robert cannot see to changing his line of employment if it is so bad to him, then it shouldn't be MY burden to bear his sorrow.

Sorry CP FA,,,

Iceman

[deicer]

Robert

I hope that you really think of the ramifications if you are going to vote no.

Look around you,,,

Unless you can take your skills to another country with a better standard of living and make the same wage as you used to,,, this is the way it is going to be.

As I originally posted above, the political and financial realities around the globe are going up for bid to the lowest denominator. To think that the status quo can be maintained at this time is assinine.

So to stamp your feet and not regroup to carry on another day is in my opinion a mis-guided path.

As for my "other" comment above, don't take it personally. It is just the way I am. I am not Politically Correct and will never be. I'm just not listening to rants anymore about how people are being mistreated. It could be worse. It also could be a lot better. Overall, it is liveable which will allow me to continue to improve my lot another day.

Rgds...

Iceman

[Kip Powick]

((((((If you see it as being that desparate, then my suggestion......))

Perhaps you misunderstood cpfa...this is what she is asking you to delete...and I agree with her

Kip

[cp fa]

I understand your point of view, I even support it, but intentional or not, your analogy advocates committing suicide, and unfortunately, during the course of some of our many financial crises at Canadian, there were a number of people who did actually end their own lives, some of whom I knew and enjoyed working with.

It's nothing to do with being politically correct, its about being insensitive to those employees and their families who are dealing with stress levels beyond which some of them are able to cope.

I ask again, please repost, but maybe use a different analogy to make your point.

[B75/76]

Well said. A little more understanding for those that may not be able to cope with this sort of stress, as well as others, would go a long way.

[Guest]

Iceman,
My and the majority of other maintenance peoples skills are not limited to maintenance.

[Guest]

Iceman,
My and the majority of other maintenance peoples skills are not limited to aviation

[deicer]

Robert

If you have no job it affects more than just the airline. Think of all the industries that rely on your paycheque.

Sure, we could cause a major shutdown of the Canadian airline industry, but where would that lead us?

Even the GTAA realises how bad things are and have been handing out $5 coupons to pax for spending in the shops and restaurants. The merchants can then turn them in to reduce their rent for the month. Do you think the GTAA got the picture? Better to give up some now than to lose it all....

To think of others, if AC is shut down, then there is no future, but if the cuts are made now, then there is always rehiring and growth.(Isn't that why you cut back rose bushes in the fall, for new growth in the spring?)

This situation sucks,,,it really SUCKS!!!

(Paragraph Deleted)


However, there are those of us out here that believe that it will get better. It's nature's Law that everything has a natural cycle and that new growth will happen.

Iceman

[deicer]

At your request I have removed the paragraph from the post above.

It is from my respect for your opinions and wishes.

Rgds...

Iceman

[Don Hudson]

Iceman;

I agree with cpfa and Kip.

Its not about PC or bucking the trend. Its about respect for others. I was frankly quite taken aback at the comment. I think it is so critical to stay completely removed from personal commentary towards others regardless of one's views. Ignoring others' views which one finds strongly distasteful is the best tactic, bar none because it simply removes the wind from their sails and leaves one's integrity intact.

I know its a free forum and anyone can say what they pretty well like.

But as much as I would love to accept the invitation to join in a discussion on the bigger questions and post the thoughts I prepared on neoliberal concepts, out of the need to engage a civilized and mature dialogue which in all cases provides a fundamental respect for all others regardless of their views, I think I'll hold off for now.

Don

[Don Hudson]

Iceman;

The "big" picture is tough to focus on in times such as these. While I think it is always important to have good "situational awareness" in one's life just as we must have in the cockpit, there are times to examine the bigger pictures, and there are times to focus on the potential hanging in the morning. While I think it is important to understand why we are situated the way we are through the long-term historical reasons, in terms of "how then should we act?" moves slightly into the background as we direct our gaze at our struggling airline.

Anger, frustration, fear and insecurity all bubble to the surface when one is "along for the ride" without the ability to affect outcomes. Translating those emotions into constructive personal responses is the challenge.

We are living in thoroughly "neoliberal" economic times and the notions which attend such an approach are just beginning to take hold. It is difficult for most to "see" however, because they're sitting too close to the big screen. One has to move back a lot to see the patterns. That's why history is so important and why reading widely is even more important. We are not struggling with healthcare, education and Kmart-ization of jobs without reason.

Neoliberal concepts mean, in part, the downloading of public burdens onto individuals (accomplished in a thousand different ways), the removal of government from the lives of the people, privatization for profit of all public services, expectations that private enterprise may best direct and provide social services, and that, in all cases, "monopolies" are bad.

Neoliberal notions mean that the concepts and metaphors of business are appropriating non-business arenas such as education, healthcare, social care of the young and old, for example. These are all human realities, not economic realities, and "business" cannot effectively address these issues because in looking after peoples needs, there is no profit to be made. Yet that is the "natural" expectation regardless of what business one is in. Pepsi and Coke knew this twenty years ago when they put their machines in schools, which are a captive audience. MacDonalds salivates at these opportunities to influence "little consumers", knowing that its not about education at all, but about market share.

Its a large discussion which rewards a little time reading and thinking. There are many references available. For a good historical perspective, Alex Carey's "Taking the Risk Out of Democracy" is good. There's a recent one called "Pigs at the Trough" which discusses recent corporate governance "issues" (to put it euphemistically). Others are, "Profit Over People", Chomsky, "Rich Media, Poor Democracy" Robert McChesney, "Globalization and the Decline of Social Reform", Teeple and so on. One doesn't need to read whole books either...dropping in for a chapter or two works with these kinds of books.

These views do not lend themselves to "left" or "right" political boxes although those who do not wish to discuss these issues will try to marginalize the dialogue by dismissing them as left-leaning views. I am a strong advocate of responsibility, accountability, self-reliance, initiative, working hard and privatization of many things which government can't do well and shouldn't be doing anyway. I think profits motivate people to do well and reward personal values. But in the headlong re-design of our social fabric under the neoliberal banner, especially where double and sometimes triple-digit profits have been made by a few, "people" are being forgotten. The anti-labour movement and the very strong downward pressures on wages we have been seeing for some time have their genesis in neoliberal views.

Its back to balance. Profit is good, but not at all cost, nor to the exclusion of those who make such profit possible.

Going outside for some sun...another precious commodity here in BC.

Don

[Don Hudson]

Iceman;

The "big" picture is tough to focus on in times such as these. While I think it is always important to have good "situational awareness" in one's life just as we must have in the cockpit, there are times to examine the bigger pictures, and there are times to focus on the potential hanging in the morning. While I think it is important to understand why we are situated the way we are through the long-term historical reasons, in terms of "how then should we act?" moves slightly into the background as we direct our gaze at our struggling airline.

Anger, frustration, fear and insecurity all bubble to the surface when one is "along for the ride" without the ability to affect outcomes. Translating those emotions into constructive personal responses is the challenge.

We are living in thoroughly "neoliberal" economic times and the notions which attend such an approach are just beginning to take hold. It is difficult for most to "see" however, because they're sitting too close to the big screen. One has to move back a lot to see the patterns. That's why history is so important and why reading widely is even more important. We are not struggling with healthcare, education and Kmart-ization of jobs without reason.

Neoliberal concepts mean, in part, the downloading of public burdens onto individuals (accomplished in a thousand different ways), the removal of government from the lives of the people, privatization for profit of all public services, expectations that private enterprise may best direct and provide social services, and that, in all cases, "monopolies" are bad.

Neoliberal notions mean that the concepts and metaphors of business are appropriating non-business arenas such as education, healthcare, social care of the young and old, for example. These are all human realities, not economic realities, and "business" cannot effectively address these issues because in looking after peoples needs, there is no profit to be made. Yet that is the "natural" expectation regardless of what business one is in. Pepsi and Coke knew this twenty years ago when they put their machines in schools, which are a captive audience. MacDonalds salivates at these opportunities to influence "little consumers", knowing that its not about education at all, but about market share.

Its a large discussion which rewards a little time reading and thinking. There are many references available. For a good historical perspective, Alex Carey's "Taking the Risk Out of Democracy" is good. There's a recent one called "Pigs at the Trough" which discusses recent corporate governance "issues" (to put it euphemistically). Others are, "Profit Over People", Chomsky, "Rich Media, Poor Democracy" Robert McChesney, "Globalization and the Decline of Social Reform", Teeple and so on. One doesn't need to read whole books either...dropping in for a chapter or two works with these kinds of books.

These views do not lend themselves to "left" or "right" political boxes although those who do not wish to discuss these issues will try to marginalize the dialogue by dismissing them as left-leaning views. I am a strong advocate of responsibility, accountability, self-reliance, initiative, working hard and privatization of many things which government can't do well and shouldn't be doing anyway. I think profits motivate people to do well and reward personal values. But in the headlong re-design of our social fabric under the neoliberal banner, especially where double and sometimes triple-digit profits have been made by a few, "people" are being forgotten. The anti-labour movement and the very strong downward pressures on wages we have been seeing for some time have their genesis in neoliberal views.

Its back to balance. Profit is good, but not at all cost, nor to the exclusion of those who make such profit possible.

Going outside for some sun...another precious commodity here in BC.

Don

[Don Hudson]

Iceman;

The "big" picture is tough to focus on in times such as these. While I think it is always important to have good "situational awareness" in one's life just as we must have in the cockpit, there are times to examine the bigger pictures, and there are times to focus on the potential hanging in the morning. While I think it is important to understand why we are situated the way we are through the long-term historical reasons, in terms of "how then should we act?" moves slightly into the background as we direct our gaze at our struggling airline.

Anger, frustration, fear and insecurity all bubble to the surface when one is "along for the ride" without the ability to affect outcomes. Translating those emotions into constructive personal responses is the challenge.

We are living in thoroughly "neoliberal" economic times and the notions which attend such an approach are just beginning to take hold. It is difficult for most to "see" however, because they're sitting too close to the big screen. One has to move back a lot to see the patterns. That's why history is so important and why reading widely is even more important. We are not struggling with healthcare, education and Kmart-ization of jobs without reason.

Neoliberal concepts mean, in part, the downloading of public burdens onto individuals (accomplished in a thousand different ways), the removal of government from the lives of the people, privatization for profit of all public services, expectations that private enterprise may best direct and provide social services, and that, in all cases, "monopolies" are bad.

Neoliberal notions mean that the concepts and metaphors of business are appropriating non-business arenas such as education, healthcare, social care of the young and old, for example. These are all human realities, not economic realities, and "business" cannot effectively address these issues because in looking after peoples needs, there is no profit to be made. Yet that is the "natural" expectation regardless of what business one is in. Pepsi and Coke knew this twenty years ago when they put their machines in schools, which are a captive audience. MacDonalds salivates at these opportunities to influence "little consumers", knowing that its not about education at all, but about market share.

Its a large discussion which rewards a little time reading and thinking. There are many references available. For a good historical perspective, Alex Carey's "Taking the Risk Out of Democracy" is good. There's a recent one called "Pigs at the Trough" which discusses recent corporate governance "issues" (to put it euphemistically). Others are, "Profit Over People", Chomsky, "Rich Media, Poor Democracy" Robert McChesney, "Globalization and the Decline of Social Reform", Teeple and so on. One doesn't need to read whole books either...dropping in for a chapter or two works with these kinds of books.

These views do not lend themselves to "left" or "right" political boxes although those who do not wish to discuss these issues will try to marginalize the dialogue by dismissing them as left-leaning views. I am a strong advocate of responsibility, accountability, self-reliance, initiative, working hard and privatization of many things which government can't do well and shouldn't be doing anyway. I think profits motivate people to do well and reward personal values. But in the headlong re-design of our social fabric under the neoliberal banner, especially where double and sometimes triple-digit profits have been made by a few, "people" are being forgotten. The anti-labour movement and the very strong downward pressures on wages we have been seeing for some time have their genesis in neoliberal views.

Its back to balance. Profit is good, but not at all cost, nor to the exclusion of those who make such profit possible.

Going outside for some sun...another precious commodity here in BC.

Don

[Kip Powick]

Well done...we all understand that most everyone is running a bit "hot" at this time and sometimes one hits the "post " button before looking at how some people are prone to misinterpret a post...I mean...look at DON HUDSON(below)... double posting...he really wants to get his message across !!!

[cp fa]

Thank you.

[Kip Powick]

Well he deleted one before "he went outside"

[deicer]

Don

With the situation being as it is, can you forsee any rebalancing of the current economic situation short of a scenario such as a "General Strike" as we saw earlier in this century, or through a major conflict greater that what we have seen in the Middle East?

As you said, the big picture is hard to focus on right now, but maybe if the word gets around, people will start to avoid ABM's, self-serve check outs, et al, as well as being aware of where the goods and services they buy are actually produced, then we can start a true recovery in that jobs and wealth will be produced that will ensure the economic well being of everyone not just a select few.

Thanks for listening...

Iceman

[deicer]

Don

With the situation being as it is, can you forsee any rebalancing of the current economic situation short of a scenario such as a "General Strike" as we saw earlier in this century, or through a major conflict greater that what we have seen in the Middle East?

As you said, the big picture is hard to focus on right now, but maybe if the word gets around, people will start to avoid ABM's, self-serve check outs, et al, as well as being aware of where the goods and services they buy are actually produced, then we can start a true recovery in that jobs and wealth will be produced that will ensure the economic well being of everyone not just a select few.

Thanks for listening...

Iceman