Tango Niner Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 DEFCON wrote: "We at Jazz would love to be able to compete and, AC is a millstone around our neck! They are the ones that can't compete domestically and should get the hell out of the market!" What about common employer? Where's all the rhetoric about merged seniority from only a couple of years ago? You mean you've given up the dream of that YVR A320 left seat? When times were good you wanted a pound of AC's flesh; now that MotherCorp's looking a little tattered you don't want anything to do with them. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RVR1200 Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 T-9.....I think guys would still love to have that seat. But you're missing the point... Jazz has a choke collar on by AC mgnt. As the market changes and Jazz has to compete on runs head to head with WJ, Canjet, Jetsgo etc., we can't. With a contract that would be quite sufficient as a low cost carrier for AC, it's been overlooked. Probably because of the choke hold that ACPA has placed upon Jazz. And, on top of all, AC has gone around Jazz to T-3 and just given up competing and handed over some good flying that Jazz had. So....it's not about wanting a seat in good times, the seat is still attractive in bad times. It's about not letting us compete. It's about slowly getting rid of Jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I don't recall making any comment related to.. "What about common employer? Where's all the rhetoric about merged seniority from only a couple of years ago? You mean you've given up the dream of that YVR A320 left seat? When times were good you wanted a pound of AC's flesh; now that MotherCorp's looking a little tattered you don't want anything to do with them. Which is it?" ...all of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Niner Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 So... generally speaking, do Jazz pilots still *want* to be associated with AC, and keep the possibility of common employer alive? Or: is the "choke collar" you describe chafing the employees to the point that they want to run free? If your choice is to stay tethered, what do you see as the advantages of being linked to AC? If your choice is "freedom", do you envision a way in which Jazz could operate successfully as an independent airline in today's Canadian marketplace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Niner Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 You didn't, Defcon. I'm referring to the past. For years, here on the AEF, we heard from the AC regional drivers about how much they wanted to be integrated with AC. Merged seniority with a common employer. Over and over again. Then, when I read your statement: "We at Jazz would love to be able to compete and, AC is a millstone around our neck! They are the ones that can't compete domestically and should get the hell out of the market!" It seemed, well, kind of shocking; a complete turnaround from the old Jazz pilot point of view ("WE ARE ONE WITH AC") that we've grown so used to hearing here. That was the only point I was trying to make and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Jazz pilot point of view: past vs present. Has it really done the 180 degree turn that it seems to have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V Climb Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 T9'ER This is very simple. Ac and ACPA should allow Jazz to compete on routes unrestricted in order to meet the current economic environment simular to "ZIP" or consider the Jazz employees as a common employee. Please consider this, if AC wants the Jazz employees to give "common concessions" then the Jazz employees should be considered "Common Employees." IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RVR1200 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I'm sure there are a few pilots who would love to see common employer sparked up again...I'm not one of them. I do think a flow through agreement should be in place though. That's a whole other thread. Looking back in history...why did AC buy 100% of the regionals? Were they afraid of how fast the regionals were expanding? I think that was part of it. Now that the market has changed and we have gone full circle with 737's going into Sault Ste. Marie and Deer Lake etc, AC feels that we are no longer valuable to them since we can't compete. Funny how we were once of great interest to AC and now, we need to be sold to pay down the debt. Jazz, if sold and under the right management with no restrictions from AC, may have the potential to grow. With less operating costs than are available to Jazz right now, who knows what could happen. The pilots do have quite a favorable contract for a new owner to expand with. It's all speculation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RVR1200 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Well said! Very good point. I personally don't think the poor F/O's salary at Jazz is sinking the ship. Give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "With less operating costs than are available to Jazz right now, who knows what could happen. The pilots do have quite a favorable contract for a new owner to expand with." Yes they do! Put 73's or an equal in service, do your own handling etc and guess what?...the costs are suddenly lower than WJ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "It seemed, well, kind of shocking; a complete turnaround from the old Jazz pilot point of view ("WE ARE ONE WITH AC" that we've grown so used to hearing here." I can't really explain what others think however, I believe the theme has always been that Jazz always wanted to be an integral piece of AC's world. Unfortunately, the AC pilots decided that all the right reasons for CALPA, mergers / Picher etc didn't apply to them and they could go it alone. I should say that IMO the fat windbag HH thought he could outsmart the AC boys and get what he wanted for a low ball price. Well, he underestimated the AC boys and the Jazz response causing the company model to implode. Today and three american AC presidents later the AC pilots have managed to twist the corp model into one which has screwed Jazz ac,route,competitive,and growth possibilities into the ground. If Picher would have gone forward Jazz would be flying whatever to all points domestic etc and AC doing the widebody long haul stuff. All ac would have been crewed by AC pilots, CALPA would be alive and well and in all likelyhood the company would have and extra couple of billion in its pockets today. But let's not forget the regional que jumper here. He got a meteoric rise to the top and is now facing an equally harrowing drop to the bottom. Fact is fact. AC's model and cost structure is unsustainable! I'll bet the acpa pilot forum is a buzz right now with all the plotting going on as to how they can kill Jazz and support themselves. Based on past practice it wouldn't suprise me a bit to see AC somehow finish off Jazz. Problem is though AC will be following right behind because the model is broken and Jazz has never been the problem! Yes the pilots at Jazz have made a number of futile attempts to rectify the situation but hey, can you blame them for trying? In any event, the ACPA has priced themselves out of the market and are now chasing the low bar at WJ, Jazz has its problems, and of course we all have Collenette. The family feud has destroyed the company as a whole and now because the mothership is falling to earth the Jazz people are only saying, let us out from underneath this rock before it falls on us too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Defcon,You wrote, "Yes they do! Put 73's or an equal in service, do your own handling etc and guess what?...the costs are suddenly lower than WJ!" Are you sure about that? WJ Capt 60-90 per year. JAZZ Capt 80-110. WJ F/O 45-60 per year. JAZZ F/O 50-80. WJ F/A 24-30 per year. JAZZ F/A 30-60. That is just the flight crews , what about Maintenance? Someone tell me if my numbers are way off base please. This ofcourse does not factor in tax free benefits pension and profit sharing. In my opinion, the JAZZ contract would be competitive in the CRJ and up to the A319-21 markets , but for a DASH8? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 DEFCON You had a chance to come to AC, assuming you were one of the first, you would be quite nicely placed in the left seat of the 320 today, worst case, 1996, sitting very comfortably in the upper middle of the 340 F/O pack. The terms were likely not fair in your eyes but you made the decision to stay and that was your decision alone. Assuming we did merge our lists as per the CALPA intent, how would that have changed the bottom line of the company? Any idea who the highest paid regional pilots were in 1995, and likely still are? JAZZ pilots. If you were an Air Canada pilot would you have supported your negots committee in order to secure yourself a more lucrative and secure future? Finally, speaking of the company’s problems, you mentioned ACPA pilots. Compare them to other full service airlines from the same period. In 2000 when other carriers were negotiating 20 to 40 percent increases, AC pilots were negotiating cost of living for 4 years and approving a LET to Mothercorp for 20 ZIP airplanes, AND, you can now make a career out of chuckin bags at AC, pays good too compared to what nearly every other baggage handler makes in NA. Unfortunate situation DEFCON but please report it responsibly and please put the blame where the blame belongs. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Wow Defcon if you're so smart how come you're not rich?? If Picher had gone forward....blah blah blah Calpa alive and well ...blah blah blah. Easy for you say I guess! As for discussion of Jazz on the ACPA pilot forum. Not ONE word about your airline. NOT ONE WORD. Thats the problem with being paranoid I guess - its all about you. Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Dragon, You just don't follow this right? Its alway the AC pilots fault, always was always will be !! As for how our contract compares to the US Carriers vs. JAZZ to their US Regional counterparts, I would really like to see these facts posted because I KNOW you are right! Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CJ Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Defcon, you are 100% right. Your post echos the setiments of most of the employees at Jazz. ACPA has secured itself a more lucrutive and secure future at the expense of everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 If 'if n buts' were only nuts..every day would be christmas.. sorry, but you asked for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "Wow Defcon if you're so smart how come you're not rich??" I humbly and with great reluctance will answer...I am! "If Picher had gone forward....blah blah blah Calpa alive and well ...blah blah blah. Easy for you say I guess!" blah blah blah? IMHO your witty response was a tad easier to put to print! "As for discussion of Jazz on the ACPA pilot forum. Not ONE word about your airline. NOT ONE WORD." You people have lied to me before and I'd like to believe you now but, once bitten, twice shy! "Thats the problem with being paranoid I guess - its all about you." Just because you think they're out to get you doesn't mean they aren't! Cheers DEFCON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 You may be surprised. The jazz contract can't hold a candle to Air willy or even ACA. But I haqve to agree with you cheeks it is th the AC pilot's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "When times were good you wanted a pound of AC's flesh; now that MotherCorp's looking a little tattered you don't want anything to do with them. Which is it?" I've got to ask, who do you think actually started the whole merger mess? I'll answer. It was the AC pilot group! They were seeking a pound of our flesh, not the other way around! We agreed to their request, followed all the rules, recieved a compromise decision (PICHER) and then were left at the alter. But, just guess what was going on behind the scenes with the AC group and HH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kal Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "Assuming we did merge our lists as per the CALPA intent, how would that have changed the bottom line of the company? Any idea who the highest paid regional pilots were in 1995, and likely still are? JAZZ pilots. " As far as pilot employement costs (which is what I suspect you are the measuring), Jazz pilots are not even close to the top. More so when the potential is considered. Sorry Dragon, Cheeks etal but those are the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 No need to be sorry kal and really no need for your sarcasm. If you read the last hundred or so posts of mine you will clearly see that though I left the regional to join AC, I have never said a derogatory or disrespectful word to any former regional/Jazz colleague. As a matter of fact, I support you in many ways. Pardon my ignorance, but who were the highest paid DHC8 pilots in Canada and NA in 1996? You seem very confident that AO was not. On the other hand, I am very confident they were. I know with just a little research, you will be able to post some data and correct me, rather than asking me to just take your word for it. cheers kal. dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just because you think they're out to get you doesn't mean they aren't! ...LOL BTW ask some more AC pilots about Jazz on the forum, nary a word I tell ya! Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Well you bet wrong Defcon. There isn't one section devoted to the Jazz boys at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally-ho Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 DEFCON I could not have said it any better. I have always said the same for years. I feel it is all too late though. I have lost all hope just due to the fact that the mainline pilots have always controled the industry and that is not going to change now. Not even if it means driving this corp into the dirt. Greed plain and simple...sad very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Not only ins't there a section, I hardly think the word is mentioned at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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