Jazz-AC Divorce

[Guest Eclipse]

I sorry but I don't follow your point. I have worked under both contracts and I would say the Jazz work rules are much more onerous to the company than the mainline contract. I would also feel on a whole the Jazz pilots are probably less productive than the mainline Pilots. Further to that I understand the Zip work rules are even looser yet.


I keep hearing how if only Jazz were to be let loose from scope the sky would be the limit.(punn intended)Why is Jazz only operating a few RJ's. Is there more comming? Doesn't Scope allow 39 frames? how long before the rest are here?

Are regionals in the South still bound by scope? From what I heard the are adding frames and miles. I don't think Jazz is anywhere near the RPM's scope allows?

( BTW not one word on Jazz in ACPA form)

[Guest CJ]

The fact that nary a WORD has been spoken on the ACPA forum regarding Jazz speaks volumes.
It's hardly a surprise, they are after all ACPA, its all about ME over there. It always has been and always will be.

[ChicoChico]

Its really funny how we can be acused of slagging Jazz in our private forum and, when several AC pilots comment that that is not the case - you come along and slag us for NOT mentioning Jazz! Seems to me that our business IS our business and yes it IS about us. Funny how that works. I suppose you DO probably spend a lot of time on your forum devoted to Air Canada pilot issues - keeps you from focusing on your own I'll bet.
Cheers Chico

[dragon]

heh CC,

Man, you are on fire tonight!

Yes, some accurate figures would surely help to dispel some misconceptions wouldn't it?..

As for who did what to whom, that is a no win conversation.

cheers big rouge m

dragon

[DEFCON]

Dragon

Here's the point the Jazz CA makes. Jazz can fly any plane you fly for the money they make today. That brings down the costs substantially. I'd bet the Jazz people might be willing to sign off on some type of very long CE to back up their position (my statement is of course nothing more than pure conjecture).

From a slightly different perspective the Jazz CE also suggests that X number of dollars will buy the corp an ATP seat on whatever they want to fly.

Both of the above provide an excellent long term business opportunity for someone wanting to do business in a profitable manner.

ACPA bears almost complete responsibility for lowering the bar in this country. They stand alone at the top and everyone but everyone else in this country is way way below. If you believe that lofty perch can be maintained in todays competitive world....

[DEFCON]

From a post last week:


In Response To: Re: Georgian on more Jazz routes (Panama Jack)

Panama,

Sorry but your way off on your numbers. My W-2 (US T4 slip) shows $37,000 plus $6K per diem, all USD of course. I'm a 2nf yr FO on a CRJ for ACA.
For the below table count on at least 90hr/mth plus $500/mth per diem.

J-41FO D328JFO CL65FO J-41CA D328CA CL65CA
Year 1 22.28 22.28 22.28 42.10 47.96 57.41
Year 2 23.22 25.56 35.39 43.40 49.26 59.20
Year 3 24.63 26.97 36.49 45.12 50.99 61.02
Year 4 26.01 28.35 37.62 46.82 52.69 62.91
Year 5 27.29 29.63 38.78 49.58 55.44 64.86
Year 6 28.79 31.13 39.98 51.27 57.13 66.86
Year 7 ............41.22 52.96 58.82 68.93
Year 8 ............42.49 54.65 60.51 71.06
Year 9 ..................56.39 62.26 73.26
Year 10 .................58.16 64.03 75.53
Year 11 .................59.97 65.83 77.86
Year 12 .................61.82 67.69 80.27
Year 13 .................63.75 69.61 82.75
Year 14 .............................85.31
Year 15 .............................87.95
Year 16 .............................90.59
Year 17 .............................93.31
Year 18 .............................96.10
Effective May 9, 2003:

[Guest gunny12]

DEFCON,

Not ONE word..... Trust me!!

relax

[DEFCON]

So here it is from the regional Can / US perspective. The ACA people appear to be making the same coin as Jazz on a dollar to dollar basis. Factor in the spread in exchange and ACA does pretty well. There are other CA comparisons that might be made but they'd probably just reflect the pilot animals dog eat dog race for the bottom of the barrel.

Wouldn't it be the perfect situation if everyone belonged to the same professional organization, an organization that regulated its member fee's? All the air carriers would then be on a level playing field and we'd all be distant from the fray.

[dragon]

DEFCON,

I am falling asleep as I work through some personal data. I have to retire for the evening, I will answer your post tomorrow.

I am sure it would make perfect sense in the morning but like I said, I am falling asleep, could you please clarify: CA CE ATP and this sentence "ACPA bears almost complete responsibility for lowering the bar in this country".

cheers
dragon

[Guest floatrr]

Good to see that the 90 million dollar loss that JAZZ incurred is of little concern on the ACPA pilots forum. Maybe you guys should look at that Hmmm?

[Guest Soarcerer]

"...ACPA has secured itself a more lucrutive and secure future at the expense of everyone else".

I suppose you were not flying for a Regional in 1985 then.

Because if you had been at a 'regional' at the time, you would know that almost every route where Jazz exists today was taken at the expense of an AC job and was flown with AC metal. This is with the exception of Grt. Lakes Airlines (nee: Austin)(aka Air Ont.)

So where were you guys as I was flying DC-9's at the time to:


YTS,YSB,YXR,YAM,YUY,YVO,YSV,YQB,YXU,CLE,YQG,YFC,YQM,YSJ,YQY,YQI,YYG,YDF,YQX,YQT,YJT,

Do you not recognize these as original AC routes? Or are you just too young to have witnessed the origins of these new regionals and their impact upon the AC jobs that were created at our expense? Yes!,...AC expense!

The regional carriers have served their purpose and kept open some routes that were too marginal or too short-haul with DC-9's and 737's. In the heyday of growth you were offered employment with the majors and incredibly, a lot of you turned it down because the offer didn't suit your terms.

I am not so sure that a 'divorce' (to use your term) is the appropriate word to employ when the two partners existed in an uneasy partnership. The connectors were aligned with their parent companies and were never 'married'. Nor were you ever hired by AC. Nonetheless, you have had a good run for many years and when the contribution of your regional carrier is no longer needed and the disolution of your assets can provide some cash for 'momcorp' to survive, the alliance can and will be broken. There was positive flow in both directions, but for a long, long time all the benefits of this arrangement flowed mostly to the regionals. Some of your colleagues saw this as a temporary arrangement and took the necessary steps to move on while some of you didn't. I was at a regional many years ago and got out at my very first opportunity. Too bad you didn't try. I hope we all survive these present difficulties, but we tend to look toward our own survival first and the rest becomes peripheral.

Perhaps not a perfectly fitting analogy, but as the animals come out of the jungle each morning and approach the diminishing waterhole and they notice that the times of plenty are dwindling, these animals start looking at each other...well... differently.

[DEFCON]

"could you please clarify: CA CE ATP"

CA = Collective Agreement.
CE should have been CA.
ATP = the license necessary.

"and this sentence "ACPA bears almost complete responsibility for lowering the bar in this country"."

Now that's a long story. Ask yourself the following question. The AC pilots are way up and alone at the top of the pay heap, in a union of one, and employed by a company that had a market monopoly and yet they find themselves in such a precarious state?

For sure I'd suggest that management and government share a portion of the responsibility but ACPA...they have been the T-Rex's of Canadian aviation for years! Unfortunately for the earlier T-Rex version the Jurasic period ended and meeker creatures inherited the earth. History can repeat itself.

[DEFCON]

"I suppose you were not flying for a Regional in 1985 then."

I was and was long before that late date.

"Because if you had been at a 'regional' at the time, you would know that almost every route where Jazz exists today was taken at the expense of an AC job and was flown with AC metal".

Without debate and the need to get into all the gory details, wasn't this why AC wanted to start the merger back in "86" with GX?

"So where were you guys as I was flying DC-9's at the time to:


YTS,YSB,YXR,YAM,YUY,YVO,YSV,YQB,YXU,CLE,YQG,YFC,YQM,YSJ,YQY,YQI,YYG,YDF,YQX,YQT,YJT,"

As above.

"Do you not recognize these as original AC routes?"

Yes but, AC dumped them as they were not able to compete with any newly emerging regional in these markets. They bought and created regionals and intended to use them to their advantage. The AC pilots decided they wanted to merge with the regionals to protect their butts and jobs. They agreed and the whole issue has now come full circle excepting that the mood is a little sour this time out.

"Or are you just too young to have witnessed the origins of these new regionals and their impact upon the AC jobs that were created at our expense? Yes!,...AC expense!"

No, I can only wish I was too young. I think you're applying the Enron accounting principals when you make an "expense" claim in this case.

"In the heyday of growth you were offered employment with the majors and incredibly, a lot of you turned it down because the offer didn't suit your terms."

Some of us are principled people. Some of us have been through several DOH mergers and some of us are good for the only true instrument of worth a man can possess...his word!

"I am not so sure that a 'divorce' (to use your term) is the appropriate word to employ when the two partners existed in an uneasy partnership. The connectors were aligned with their parent companies and were never 'married'. Nor were you ever hired by AC. Nonetheless, you have had a good run for many years and when the contribution of your regional carrier is no longer needed and the disolution of your assets can provide some cash for 'momcorp' to survive, the alliance can and will be broken. There was positive flow in both directions, but for a long, long time all the benefits of this arrangement flowed mostly to the regionals. Some of your colleagues saw this as a temporary arrangement and took the necessary steps to move on while some of you didn't. I was at a regional many years ago and got out at my very first opportunity. Too bad you didn't try."

Geez, I feel bad now and btw, have you noticed what's been going on with Swiss Air & Cross Air for the last couple of years?

"I hope we all survive these present difficulties,"

Very nice, me too!

"but we tend to look toward our own survival first and the rest becomes peripheral. Perhaps not a perfectly fitting analogy, but as the animals come out of the jungle each morning and approach the diminishing waterhole and they notice that the times of plenty are dwindling, these animals start looking at each other...well... differently."

An especially concerning fact to the little fella when he knows he's gotta share that hole with big-ole T-Rex. The little guy knows he's got one advantage though. He needs a lot less water to survive than the big guy!

[Guest CJ]

Chico, how might my issues differ from yours? Of course your Air Canada Pilot Forum is about your issues.My point is,if not a word has been spoken, it goes to show how little regard you have for your fellow pilots and collegues at Jazz. Already a well known fact. Sorry for stating the obvious, your easily slagged.

[nozel]

"Or are you just too young to have witnessed the origins of these new regionals and their impact upon the AC jobs that were created at our expense? Yes!,...AC expense!"

If memory serves me Some 200 Pilots were paid to stay at home for a few years then...
If this were true calpa had Air Canada by the .... !

[Guest RVR1200]

floatrr, you said,

"Jazz F/O 50-80" I wish this was accurate. I'd be a whole lot happier. Jazz F/O's don't start at 50K and certainly don't top out a 80K. It's nice to dream though!

Also DEFCON did say 37's...not Dash 8's.

[Guest The Clumsy Lover]

For what it's worth, the word on the street is more are in the middle of being negotiated to come. And thay all already have red leafs painted on them. Last week the YYZ LEC was discussing possible layoffs at the mainline and the transfer of all the existing RJ's to Jazz. Approx 250 guys may be affected. Joe Randall wants all the RJ's at his side before any deals can be made to Jazz...

May not happen, might all be negotiation tactics but time will tell.

[Buzz2]

Yeh the bottom number for Captain's are off as well ,it isn't 80k/year

[Buzz2]

You are correct we are not near 39sj's or ASM limitation, granted ACPA scope is the most restrictive in North America, but that is only part of the problem.

[Guest Nigol]

floatrr…

“Are you sure about that? WJ Capt 60-90 per year. JAZZ Capt 80-110. WJ F/O 45-60 per year. JAZZ F/O 50-80. WJ F/A 24-30 per year. JAZZ F/A 30-60. That is just the flight crews , what about Maintenance? Someone tell me if my numbers are way off base please. This of course does not factor in tax free benefits pension and profit sharing.”

The JAZZ pay is based on 85 hours of hard time, no o/t and no profit share. Currently at JAZZ, nobody pilots or FAs, have been sched to fly more than 80 hours.

WJ Capt 60-90 /yr…JAZZ 14yr Capt $104539.80 /yr…Zip 14yr Capt 737 $165,000/yr?
WJ F/O 45-60 /yr…JAZZ 14 yr F/O $66289.80 /yr…Zip 14yr F/O 737 $115,000/yr???
WJ F/A 24-30 /yr…JAZZ 14 yr F/A $36720.00 /yr…Zip F/A 737 $25,000 /yr?????


I am just guessing at the Zip wages because nobody will tell me exact figures. I hope I have estimated on the high side(lol). If someone is willing to provide exact figures please correct me.

Based on these wages and flying the same aircraft, JAZZ pilots flying 737 will be more competetive with WJ. Yeah yeah yeah...I know we fly D8s. I have heard it before. JR admitted that JAZZ could do the flying cheaper than Zip, but JAZZ does not have the tools to do the job. It's like telling a union carpenter to go build a house without a hammer; and to build it cheaper than his competition.

JAZZ pilots will most likely have to give into wage concessions which can only make us more wage competetive with WJ. I know JAZZ flying 737s competing with WJ may never happen. However, when JAZZ shuts down or is sold, and the pilots have moved on, ACPA pilots may be flying those 737s for less than what a JAZZ pilot makes today.

Pay cuts for all are coming for all of us. We only have ourselves to blame. Rant over...I'm out.

[tsgas]

So Jazz pilots are not well paid except what they fly is too small to justify their salary.

[Homerun]

Yes except the U.S. regionals probably fly 20 hard time hours more per month, have no or a very inferior pension, inferior benefits to you, inferior or no duty rigs. How about presenting the entire picture ( total cost/per hard time hour). A comparison under these terms will tell a different story.

[Homerun]

Is Jazz a regional airline or is it not? It seems to me that you are not happy with the niche your company is in and want something else.

[Guest JW]

>>Jazz has a choke collar on by AC mgnt<<

Risk v benefit?

Is Jazz worth more to AC alive, dead or in limbo?

If Jazz is separate a free of AC it is potentially competition. If Jazz is controlled by AC at least that aspect is not an issue. Dead, there may be some value to transfer and write off chunks of debt.

Solely from a cold business/corporate standpoint, would AC could benefit from the demise of Jazz, or the outright sale of Jazz, or maintaining Jazz under the AC banner and control with some partial gain?

...imo!

JW

[dragon]

Yes, pure conjecture and most likely correct too. This would be a natural move for Jazz pilots and a natural move for AC as well. Both do provide opportunity and profit as you surmise.

There is a strikingly similar model in Canada, that being the Tier 2 and Tier 3 model, Georgian could fly all Jazz’s Dashs and 146s for the same price they fly their B1900s, you would be out of a job, unless you would do your job for the wage they would do it for and Erik in Barrie could hire a new group of young pilots and pay them a fraction of what he pays his current group – he would find pilots willing to do that. Though you could theoretically pull this off, realistically, this is not a conceivable solution for the reasons you felt as you read this paragraph. How do you like your strategy now if you are a mainline pilot?

To your post below;

Air Canada finds themselves in a unique financial position today. To lay that at the feet of ACPA pilots is a loooooong stretch DEFCON. In 1996 we were just slightly ahead of the other mainline carrier in Canada and only due to the financial constraints felt there, over simplified. Since then, ACPA pilots have made moderate monetary gains and I could cite you numerous examples of tangible productivity improvements and flexibility to the company. That is not to say we couldn’t and won’t do more. Of course first you must diagnose the illness for it is counter productive for a physician to treat a patient for a Neoplasm when in fact the patient suffers from a CNS disorder. Do not count the family dead just yet.

Your post fails to mention some other factors. You lay our current woes at the feet of Government, Management and ACPA. Look at the problems, worldwide, that consume our industry and I am sure you will agree that your diagnosis is grossly incomplete.

Finally, our [AC and wholly owned] history is flawed for certain. Our structure, our dislike and lack of trust of each other are disasters laying in wait for sure. What is the answer? I wish I knew the answer. To this day, I wish things would have worked out differently starting back in 1995 with the merger issue. See, even though I would have been behind 800 connector guys at the time, it would have been my rightful spot, I would have achieved my goal and I would have been satisfied knowing I was part of the Air canada team. Of course a few righteous and selfish ‘Leaders’ f***ed that up for all of us.

Once I saw what was happening I had to leave.

Good luck with your current challenge DEFCON, I sincerely mean that.

dragon