Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[Turbofan]

2 hours ago, AvWatcher said:

The primary reason that the new hire wages are so low, is that for many negotiations, ACPA, which was dominated by senior pilots, used the phrase "take from the unborn and give it to us". As a result, starting wages kept dropping, while the high seniority pilots reaped nice increases. While that worked for AC as well, you can't blame them completely for the low starting wages.

Accurate until you got to the part about senior pilots reaping nice increases.  That didn’t happen.  No one has kept up even close to inflation.  There are only those who have done poorly and those who have done worse.  

But yes.  It is true the biggest hits went to the most junior as you can see from the chart below.

[Turbofan]

The issue we have is what AC is doing already and about to do even more.

That RP makes 45% less than pre bankruptcy.  That requires an 80% pay increase to get back even to 2003. Not an increase, just even.

However this makes us an easy target to paint as unreasonable.  But as AC does this they are also alienating their pilots more and more.

They may be able to gaslight the truth with the public, but not those who have lived it.

 

[J.O.]

He may have been gone for a good long time, but the more I read and hear about this situation, the more I feel that Milton's presence is still permeating the place. Sad.

[Turbofan]

https://openjaw.com/newsroom/airline/2024/09/05/acta-calls-for-intervention-as-ac-pilot-offer-revealed/

LOL.

AC leaks an offer that is less than WJ wages.  An offer under NDA by the way.

Then an affiliate organization advocates for government intervention based on unreasonable pilots.

Greasy. And we know they are just getting started.

 

 

[Turbofan]

 

This is what Air Canada says new pilots make.

https://skiesmag.com/news/air-canada-and-pilots-continue-pr-battle-as-contract-negotiations-stall/

Air Canada lists the average salary for narrowbody pilots with three to five years’ experience at between $215,000 to $290,000 a year, plus expenses;

 

New pilots are getting so frustrated they are starting to post their T4's

 

With recent news articles floating around with false/inflated information I figure I'd answer the question of how much Air Canada pilots actually get paid. Here is my most recent T4. For context, I was hired at the beginning of 2020, suffered two years of furlough, and am currently a 737 Max 8 First Officer. I have been flying for 15 years and my license cost me ~$75,000 that I am still paying off. 

I am posting this from a burner account to prevent any doxxing that posting this information could lead to.

[Turbofan]

This is actually quite risky if AC is ever able to identify them.

We have had pilots disciplined for posting their T4 in the past.

 

Reason: It casts their employers in a bad light 

[J.O.]

If the employer is not being honest, don't they deserve to be called out for it? Who better to do that than the people who have evidence of the truth?

[Turbofan]

Truth has nothing to do with it. You can not put your employer in a bad light.  In Canada you can get terminated if you do.

Besides.  What's the truth?  I can pretty much guarantee AC will have a convoluted explanation for how they came up with their numbers.

Remember they also stated the average AC pilot wage increased over 2 times the rate of inflation from 2014 to today during the 10 year deal.  

We actually got 2% raises which of course had us fall even further behind.

So how did AC come up with this ridiculous percentage then? Air Canada hired a few thousand pilots over that time.  All progressing through 4 year flat salary.  They are using that progression from year 1 to year 5 to make the 2 times inflation statement.

Because during the first 4 years as you progress from flat pay to formula pay there is a jump.

For example. A 737 FO who starts at 59k in year one.  But makes 140k by year 10.  That is a raise of 237%.  Inflation over that 10 year period was 30%.

So AC makes the argument that 737FO wage increased 7 1/2 times the rate of inflation.

Even though a 10 year 737 FO has actually lost further ground on inflation.

So what's the truth?  It's all gaslighting.  But you can't stop them.  They will always have an explanation, justification or excuse.

It is risky calling your employer out.  They have all the power

[UpperDeck]

"$100 in 2014 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $126.88 today, an increase of $26.88 over 10 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 2.41% per year between 2014 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 26.88%"

The above is extracted from a Cdn stats website. I believe the AC pilot contract stipulated a 2% annual increase so with compounding, wages should have maintained equivalency with what was deemed acceptable on initiation of the contract.

And now the company is offering 30% increase?

Two questions:

1) is that stats figure quoted above compounded?

2) is the base issue the relative inadequacy of that 2014 salary base?

Note that there was a recent three year period where the CPI was high but in all other years, less than 2%.

[Turbofan]

Upperdeck.
 

Two questions:

1) is that stats figure quoted above compounded?

You need to be more clear.  Which stats figure?  If you are referring to the Canadian wages graph?  No that isn’t some gaslighting compounding trick. 

Todays A330RP wage is directly compared to an A330RP from 2003 inflation adjusted to today.  Today’s RP makes 45% less.

No stats manipulation.

 

 

 

2) is the base issue the relative inadequacy of that 2014 salary base?
Yes.

This is the first opportunity AC pilots have had to recover from bankruptcy in 2003.  The podcast on a previous page explains why and how it has taken this long.

 

[Turbofan]

Maybe this would help explain.

[Turbofan]

This is pretty straight forward.

Give us back our pre bankruptcy wages and working conditions.

If not?  We strike.

If the government intervenes to keep us from attaining our objective?  An arbitrated agreement is usually fairly short.  We are already a year into the next contract as it expired in 2023.  
 

We will be right back here doing this again in under two years.

[UpperDeck]

40 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Todays A330RP wage is directly compared to an A330RP from 2003 inflation adjusted to today.  Today’s RP makes 45% less.

No stats manipulation.

Sorry Turbo but not sure I understand. Are you saying that an RP today is getting 45% less than an RP in 2003 in equivalent dollars?

A 2003 dollar is worth $1.64 today. So...if an RP in 2003 was being paid $50,000 in 2003, the 2024 equivalency is $82,000. So you're saying that an RP today ( using the figures above) is being paid $45,200? ( That's 45% less in equivalent dollars).

I have trouble with that assertion.

Next question.....I think there is general agreement that economically, things are "out of whack" and that there must be some reasonable correlation between the market value of a service and the cost of providing that service. In the construction industry, there was a sudden and significant increase in the cost of labour and goods. That is reflected ( as is simple greed) in the cost of housing. And what is now happening in some areas is a marked decrease in buyers.....and a reduction in price demands from trades. Simplistic ( but true) comparison. In April, I got a quote to put in a cement patio. The fellow wanted $35/ft. I waited and got it done by another previously too busy contractor....at $18/ft!! Hell of a price drop!!

And so....assume an AC labour interruption without government intervention. Those younger pilots MAY have less "invested" and at risk and can forego a few months wages. Can the same be said of those 50 year-olds with college age kids?

How much would it cost AC to close the doors for two relatively slow months if it lays off everyone from one end of the process to the other? And what is the cost to AC of a pilot wage package accommodating demands having regard, of course to the "me too" ripple effect?

The question was asked of me ( rhetorically); what is the "worth" of a pilot. And my answer is unchanged. The issue isn't one of value or worth but simply, what is the employer willing ( and able) to pay without jeopardizing the raison d'etre.....profit! Without a net gain, there is absolutely no reason for the undertaking.

[UpperDeck]

Turbo....just looked at your first chart comparing Bank of Canada with AC Capt. Boy! Looks compelling....at first. And then you look at the gap with which you started in 2014. Hmmm!

Equalize them and ...different picture.

I have trouble with the constant comparison with the US "big three". You referenced earlier the comparison with Cdn carriers. I'd like to see that comparison; its relevant!

Damn case of beer costs me $53 here and $21 in the US. Wish they were the same....but they aren't.

[Turbofan]

Upperdeck wrote:

Sorry Turbo but not sure I understand. Are you saying that an RP today is getting 45% less than an RP in 2003 in equivalent dollars?

A 2003 dollar is worth $1.64 today. So...if an RP in 2003 was being paid $50,000 in 2003, the 2024 equivalency is $82,000. So you're saying that an RP today ( using the figures above) is being paid $45,200? ( That's 45% less in equivalent dollars).

I have trouble with that assertion.

 

LOL,

I totally get why you are having trouble with my assertion.  It sounds unreasonable.  I must be spinning something right.  That’s what everyone does right?

Sad truth is I am not.  

I will let you figure the numbers out on your own.  Remember the situation has actually worsened since that chart published two years ago.

In 2003 a year 4 A330RP was paid ($100.49) day rate and (111.15) night rate

Inflation adjusted to today those rates become $158.77 and $175.61.

A year 4 A330 RP today gets paid. $90.72

Roughly 85% of the non inflation adjusted wage from 2003.

55% of the inflation adjusted wage from 2003.

 

 

[Turbofan]

40 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....just looked at your first chart comparing Bank of Canada with AC Capt. Boy! Looks compelling....at first. And then you look at the gap with which you started in 2014. Hmmm!

Equalize them and ...different picture.

I have trouble with the constant comparison with the US "big three". You referenced earlier the comparison with Cdn carriers. I'd like to see that comparison; its relevant!

Damn case of beer costs me $53 here and $21 in the US. Wish they were the same....but they aren't.

The orange line in that A320 Captain chart is the inflation line from the 2003 AC 320 wage of about $210/hour.

That is the gap we want to close.  Notice however how close the AC A320 CA wage,( inflation adjusted orange line), is to US wages. Similar to pre bankruptcy in 2000 as well.

The US wages aren’t there to necessarily compare to.  It’s to show we aren’t being unreasonable for wanting our pre bankruptcy wages back.

Or put another way.  The chart compares our prebankruptcy selves to our current selves.  The US backdrop is there to add color and a historical snap shot.

[UpperDeck]

But....but ...there is no "gap" between 2014 and 2024.

There was nothing "going on" in 2014....no crisis of biblical proportions...and the company and its pilots agreed on a contract that ensured "labour peace".

And now.....why now?.....the demand is to turn back the clock 23 years and start over. 

I believe that this total commitment to an historical benchmark is unreasonable. An acquaintance of mine made a LOT of money in 1987....a confluence of events. I'm sure he'd like to use that year as a benchmark. I don't think it will happen.

The question is simply what can AC reasonably afford TODAY. If AC can get a qualified ( and capable) pilot "on the market") for $250.....why should it pay $375? Reparations?

Once upon a time, AC was losing $1 million A DAY.....and the pilots and other groups were making wage concessions to save their jobs. Not too many years later, AC was "monetizing" to raise cash.

It's a process and as I've said, IMO trying to use 2003 as a benchmark is unreasonable.

[neverminds]

18 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

But....but ...there is no "gap" between 2014 and 2024.

There was nothing "going on" in 2014....no crisis of biblical proportions...and the company and its pilots agreed on a contract that ensured "labour peace".

And now.....why now?.....the demand is to turn back the clock 23 years and start over. 

I believe that this total commitment to an historical benchmark is unreasonable. An acquaintance of mine made a LOT of money in 1987....a confluence of events. I'm sure he'd like to use that year as a benchmark. I don't think it will happen.

The question is simply what can AC reasonably afford TODAY. If AC can get a qualified ( and capable) pilot "on the market") for $250.....why should it pay $375? Reparations?

Once upon a time, AC was losing $1 million A DAY.....and the pilots and other groups were making wage concessions to save their jobs. Not too many years later, AC was "monetizing" to raise cash.

It's a process and as I've said, IMO trying to use 2003 as a benchmark is unreasonable.

The AC pilots absolutely did NOT agree on the contract that they ended up with in 2014/15. It was  a 10 year contract shoved down their throat by a ridiculous Final Offer Selection(FOS) binding arbitration. Two contracts were offered to the arbitrator to chose from : management’s and the pilots’. Guess which one the arbitrator chose?

[Turbofan]

44 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

But....but ...there is no "gap" between 2014 and 2024.

There was nothing "going on" in 2014....no crisis of biblical proportions...and the company and its pilots agreed on a contract that ensured "labour peace".

 

Upperdeck,

I have steered you to the historical podcast on an earlier page multiple times now.  if you had listened to it you would now, why now.  If you had listened to it you would have a better understanding of what happened between 2011-2014.

You don't appear to be trying to understand. Rather you appear to be jumping around to anything you can find to oppose.

But it really doesn't matter.  If you don't agree that is fine.  If you are opposed to us recovering to pre bankruptcy fine.

It wont change anything on this side. 

We will get paid our pre bankruptcy wages or strike.

 

[UpperDeck]

On 8/28/2024 at 3:32 PM, Seeker said:

I hired a lawyer recently and it's been nothing but incompetence.  Many of my friends have the same story.  If pilots flew aircraft like lawyers lawyer there'd be a crash every day.

Don't know how I missed that comment!!

Well....Air Canada has 5000 pilots, correct? In Ontario alone there are almost 60,000 lawyers!!

You can protect yourself from an incompetent lawyer. Walk out the door.

But that unwitting pax who has no opportunity to vet who is in the pointy end.....??

Did you read about the unfortunate patient in Florida who was scheduled for a splenectomy and died when the surgeon instead removed his liver?

[UpperDeck]

32 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

I have steered you to the historical podcast on an earlier page multiple times now.  if you had listened to it you would now, why now.  If you had listened to it you would have a better understanding of what happened between 2011-2014.

Turbo....Actually, I did take the time to listen to SOME of the podcast. The "historian" was hired late 90's and is now in the top 10% of the seniority list.

Funny how these things evolve. Wasn't it the "younger guys" driving the opposition to Picher with an FO as a spearhead? Now is it the young guys leading a fight to regain something they never enjoyed.....the 2003 "baseline"?

 Calin is being quoted as describing AC pilots in the top "quarter per centile" to justify cross-border parity. Hmm! Did Calin mean within 25%?

Hollis Harris said he wouldn't agree to an operational merger of mainline and the regionals. JJ Bourgeault told me directly that a merger was in fact within their plans. Point is ...people often say what others want to hear and expectation is oft times based on perception.

I'm not jumping around simply to oppose. Who knows ...maybe you WILL get an increase that "recovers" concessions and takeaways since 2003. 

But I don't think that will be a negotiated resolution prior to Sept.17th.

 

[Seeker]

59 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Don't know how I missed that comment!!

Well....Air Canada has 5000 pilots, correct? In Ontario alone there are almost 60,000 lawyers!!

You can protect yourself from an incompetent lawyer. Walk out the door.

But that unwitting pax who has no opportunity to vet who is in the pointy end.....??

Did you read about the unfortunate patient in Florida who was scheduled for a splenectomy and died when the surgeon instead removed his liver?

The difference between a pilot and a lawyer and between a pilot and a surgeon is that the pilot's along for the ride.  This is a very strong motivator.  I wonder if a lawyer was going to share the same sentence as his client if there'd be more effort put in?  Of course the vast majority of lawyers are fine and there are many life situations where they are indispensable so I make no blanket statements and hope if I have to make a midnight call that it gets answered.

Anyway, the point of my post was that a minimum level of skill for a pilot is enough that he doesn't get killed, the minimum level of competence for a lawyer (surgeon, engineer) is that they don't get reported to their ethics board for review.

[UpperDeck]

17 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Anyway, the point of my post was that a minimum level of skill for a pilot is enough that he doesn't get killed, the minimum level of competence for a lawyer (surgeon, engineer) is that they don't get reported to their ethics board for review.

You keep me going, Seeker....and obviously I have too much leisure time!

Ethics and competence are entirely distinct concepts. I know of lawyers who were very capable but they were "less than ethical". And I have actually intervened when it was obvious that a particular lawyer though kind, courteous and honest....was incompetent!!

The minimum standard, my friend is BOTH ethical AND competent!

And if I am in search of a professional, I'm demanding. Mere competence does not suffice; I want the expert!!

[UpperDeck]

Seeker...LOL...

I know that old adage....the pilot is flying for his own safety.

Not very common but there are lawyers ( and I was one of them...ahem!) that put their money where there mouth was. I took on cases and went to trial knowing I would get $0.00 if I lost.

And guess what? There was a few of those!!

[Turbofan]

2 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

Who knows ...maybe you WILL get an increase that "recovers" concessions and takeaways since 2003. 

But I don't think that will be a negotiated resolution prior to Sept.17th.

 

 

Recovering from concessions is not an increase. If your hourly rate dropped by 50% one day.  Then your employer gave you 100% raise to get back to even.  Is that a raise or increase?

The Unionist asks the Capitalist.

We have been very clear from the beginning.  We recover our concessions over the last two decades, or we strike

The company has known our position for over a year.

If that means we get forced to strike to get our concessions back? Unfortunate but so be it.

We are prepared if that were to happen