Manitoba. A reopening plan or a road block?

[Turbofan]

https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/index.html?item=51422

I find it hard to believe that Manitoba would spend the time and money on this initiative unless they planned on instituting for a period of time.

On the surface it touts reopening.  But on further scrutiny it looks as though if you are not from Manitoba, regardless of vaccination status, you will have to quarantine for 14 days on arrival.

This looks more like a preemptive position against reopening in many aspects.  What would happen if every province did this?
 

Thoughts?

[Guest1]

28 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/index.html?item=51422

I find it hard to believe that Manitoba would spend the time and money on this initiative unless they planned on instituting for a period of time.

On the surface it touts reopening.  But on further scrutiny it looks as though if you are not from Manitoba, regardless of vaccination status, you will have to quarantine for 14 days on arrival.

This looks more like a preemptive position against reopening in many aspects.  What would happen if every province did this?
 

Thoughts?

1. It is indeed only to allow Manitobans to travel 

Quote

The Manitoba government is introducing a vaccine passport to allow fully vaccinated Manitobans to travel between provinces without needing to quarantine on return.

2. They seem to be assuming that other provinces will honour the passport and that could indeed be putting the cart before the horse. 

[Turbofan]

29 minutes ago, Kargokings said:

 

2. They seem to be assuming that other provinces will relax any travel restrictions they may have for  Manitobans because of that card.

That’s my point.

Is this where things are heading?  Interprovincial travel requiring a vaccination passport?
I can see crossing an international boarder.  I can see the Federal Government setting policy.

But this is a domestic jurisdiction.  Impacting freedom of movement of Canadians within Canada.  Even fully vaccinated Canadians.

A multi layered bureaucratic approach will also stop international travel.  Who would bother coming to Canada if other provinces followed suit?

Of course what I see as a flaw someone else may see as a feature.

It looks to me that Manitoba has decided to discourage travel for the foreseeable future.  180 degrees to opening up.

Essentially taking down one fence while putting up another.  
 

I hope other Provinces don’t follow suit.  Doing so, from a practical perspective, would close Canada to foreigners.

Allowing Domestic jurisdictions ( from a practical perspective) to to usurp the authority of Federal Jurisdictions in setting freedom of movement.

Where does it stop.  Maybe Toronto brings in their vaccine passport.  Then Mississauga.  Then Oakville.  Creating a bureaucratic juggernaut.

I hope the response to this is simply, fine do your own thing.  We just won’t go there. And leave it a that.

If other Provinces decide to take Manitoba’s lead?
 

 

[J.O.]

This reminds me of a scene in Hunt for Red October. 

Borodin: I will live in Montana. And I will marry a round American woman and raise rabbits, and she will cook them for me. And I will have a pickup truck... maybe even a "recreational vehicle." And drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?

Ramius: I suppose. 

Borodin: No papers?

Ramius: No papers, state to state.

So much for that ...

[Bobcaygeon]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

That’s my point.

Is this where things are heading?  Interprovincial travel requiring a vaccination passport?
I can see crossing an international boarder.  I can see the Federal Government setting policy.

But this is a domestic jurisdiction.  Impacting freedom of movement of Canadians within Canada.  Even fully vaccinated Canadians.

A multi layered bureaucratic approach will also stop international travel.  Who would bother coming to Canada if other provinces followed suit?

Of course what I see as a flaw someone else may see as a feature.

It looks to me that Manitoba has decided to discourage travel for the foreseeable future.  180 degrees to opening up.

Essentially taking down one fence while putting up another.  
 

I hope other Provinces don’t follow suit.  Doing so, from a practical perspective, would close Canada to foreigners.

Allowing Domestic jurisdictions ( from a practical perspective) to to usurp the authority of Federal Jurisdictions in setting freedom of movement.

Where does it stop.  Maybe Toronto brings in their vaccine passport.  Then Mississauga.  Then Oakville.  Creating a bureaucratic juggernaut.

I hope the response to this is simply, fine do your own thing.  We just won’t go there. And leave it a that.

If other Provinces decide to take Manitoba’s lead?
 

 

It's an opening for now for Manitobans. Now only the east coast is "off limits". We are finally getting to where nearly every other Canadian outside of the Eastern bubble and the north have had the ENTIRE pandemic. It worked last summer but hasn't done anything but delay the 2nd and 3rd wave.

Vaccinations from other provinces will get recognized once they have some form of "vax passport" or other legitimate documentation. It's pretty tough to say a "blind" yes until other provinces indicate how and if they will do something similar. Manitoba has been the first one to announce this so we will see where it goes.

Now that Trudeau and crew have indicated fully vaccinated people will be exempt for international travel we'll see what documentation the Fed's will accept fo rvaccination and likely the provinces will accept something similar.

 

You can be pessimistic but clear "perks" from being fully vaccinated are a positive sign for those of us that made an effort. I personally elected to get my 2nd vaccination with AZ (and it's negative press) even though I probably could have held off and received Pfizer/Modena approx 5 weeks later (in hindsight of course as mixing wasn't yet approved and I had no idea when the province would allow me to book my 2nd shot)

 

Just my thoughs.....

 

[Turbofan]

14 minutes ago, Bobcaygeon said:

You can be pessimistic but clear "perks" from being fully vaccinated are a positive sign for those of us that made an effort. I personally elected to get my 2nd vaccination with AZ (and it's negative press) even though I probably could have held off and received Pfizer/Modena approx 5 weeks later (in hindsight of course as mixing wasn't yet approved and I had no idea when the province would allow me to book my 2nd shot)

 

Just my thoughs.....

 

To set the record I’m not anti vax.  My first dose was also AZ.  Pfizer was my second.  Will have to wait and see how that plays out with these passports.  But that’s another topic.

I also support the honey approach to getting people vaccinated.  Perks, positive feedback work.

But I read Manitoba’s vaccine passport as a double edged sword.  Positive incentive to vaccinate for Manitoba residents, stay away for everyone else.

I guess we will see, but other provinces following suit could turn into and interprovincial nightmare for travellers.

[Guest1]

18 minutes ago, Bobcaygeon said:

It's an opening for now for Manitobans. Now only the east coast is "off limits". We are finally getting to where nearly every other Canadian outside of the Eastern bubble and the north have had the ENTIRE pandemic. It worked last summer but hasn't done anything but delay the 2nd and 3rd wave.

 

 

My point remains, will other Provinces recognize the Manitoba passport?  

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, Kargokings said:

My point remains, will other Provinces recognize the Manitoba passport?  

Other than the Maritimes  why would it matter if other Provinces recognize it or not?
 

Manitoba residents are free to move about most of the country without quarantine as it is.  

The only perk that comes with the passport is for Manitoba residents and only when entering Manitoba.  It simply has no relevance outside of Manitoba.
 

We have four provinces in this country that have been more isolationist than the others. Exiting the pandemic it would be natural to expect that one of these provinces would be the likely source of further isolationist legislation.

Now we have one of those provinces enacting legislation, that if enacted in all provinces would mean, interprovincial quarantine for everyone, regardless of vaccination status, all the time.

 

[47north]

BC has said they will not be issuing vaccine passports or requiring proof of vaccination.  They will provide vaccination records and support verification for international travel.

[Turbofan]

3 minutes ago, 47north said:

BC has said they will not be issuing vaccine passports or requiring proof of vaccination.  They will provide vaccination records and support verification for international travel.

Yes.  But BC also recognized their jurisdiction didn’t allow them to stop interprovincial travel when they considered it.  They stuck with limiting travel within BC only.

Instead they decided to close the Trans Canada highway for construction east of Golden.  Creative.

[Turbofan]

FWIW Alberta has also stated a Covid vaccine passport is off the table.  They would however provide documentation for whatever is need for international travel.

So I guess no Alberta or BC guests in Manitoba even after exiting the Pandemic.  My son lives in North Eastern Ontario.  Can I drive through Manitoba? What if my car breaks down and I need a hotel?  What if I’m hungry?
 

I have my vaccination receipts from Alberta.  How much is the Manitoba fine if my fully vaccinated body gets caught buying gas?

Crap my licence plate will out me too. 

Yikes just looked up the fines in Manitoba.  Maybe I will just go around through the US when the boarder opens…..…..just a minute. I wonder if that is the intent to begin with.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/covid/archives/restoring/enforcement.pdf

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

FWIW Alberta has also stated a Covid vaccine passport is off the table.  They would however provide documentation for whatever is need for international travel.

So I guess no Alberta or BC guests in Manitoba even after exiting the Pandemic.  My son lives in North Eastern Ontario.  Can I drive through Manitoba? What if my car breaks down and I need a hotel?  What if I’m hungry?

worse yet what if you need to use the bathroom?????  

[internet]

In my opinion you’re over thinking this. The province was (is) still in a wave three mess. The Premier needed to distract the populous and threw them a bone. There is zero chance all travellers were quarantining (my guess is the actual compliance was 50% if that).  This is all theatrics.

[Turbofan]

3 hours ago, internet said:

In my opinion you’re over thinking this. The province was (is) still in a wave three mess. The Premier needed to distract the populous and threw them a bone. There is zero chance all travellers were quarantining (my guess is the actual compliance was 50% if that).  This is all theatrics.

Possibly.

 

This is what Intergovernmental affairs minister, LeBlanc, had to say on the matter of vaccine passports yesterday.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7936027/icao-vaccine-passports/

“We have been undertaking significant discussions with the European Union and with the United States,” LeBlanc said in French.

“But Prime Minister Trudeau, and the premiers of the provinces and territories have agreed on the importance of having a national document proving the vaccination while respecting that medical record information belongs to the provinces and territories.”

Why would the government of Manitoba announce a provincial vaccine passport on the eve of a national vaccine passport?  According to Minister LeBlanc Manitoba knows all about the plans.  So why the sudden multi layered approach?  An approach that would effectively nullify a Canadian or foreign vaccine passport within Manitoba.

The multi layered governmental approach to containing Covid has the potential to be problematic to unwind.  Here is a different issue, same problem, starting to play out in Alberta.  We have mask by laws in Calgary, Edmonton and Alberta as a whole.  The opening plan for Alberta takes masks to voluntary in phase 3.  Calgary and Edmonton have indicated they don’t agree and may/likely leave their mask bylaws in place.

This type of thing is probably going to play out all over Canada if hesitancy is permitted to lead to roadblocks.  What is needed is strong Federal leadership.

The unwinding of multi layered governmental laws could be very problematic for business.  In particular anything to do with the movement of people.

 

 

 

 

[J.O.]

Interesting dilemma no doubt. Are mask mandates a "health care" issue? If they are, then they are the domain of the provincial government and I would think the municipalities could be ordered to cease and desist. I'm not aware of any municipal mask rules here in BC; probably because none were necessary since the province put them in place in the early days of the pandemic. If Kenney had done the right thing from the start, Alberta cities wouldn't have felt the need to put their own rules in place. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by J.O.

[Bobcaygeon]

On 6/9/2021 at 5:12 PM, Turbofan said:

FWIW Alberta has also stated a Covid vaccine passport is off the table.  They would however provide documentation for whatever is need for international travel.

So I guess no Alberta or BC guests in Manitoba even after exiting the Pandemic.  My son lives in North Eastern Ontario.  Can I drive through Manitoba? What if my car breaks down and I need a hotel?  What if I’m hungry?
 

I have my vaccination receipts from Alberta.  How much is the Manitoba fine if my fully vaccinated body gets caught buying gas?

Crap my licence plate will out me too. 

Yikes just looked up the fines in Manitoba.  Maybe I will just go around through the US when the boarder opens…..…..just a minute. I wonder if that is the intent to begin with.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/asset_library/en/covid/archives/restoring/enforcement.pdf

The word out there is that Pallister and team were already talking to the other provinces when this was announced but nothing had been finalized at the time f the announcement. With the time it would take to get 12 other provinces and territories to agree on something I can see why they just announced it now. 

 

My prediction is that what's considered "acceptable" documentation for MB will be clarified and any provinces (East Coast) that reciprocate will not be required to self isolate. 

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, Bobcaygeon said:

The word out there is that Pallister and team were already talking to the other provinces when this was announced but nothing had been finalized at the time f the announcement. With the time it would take to get 12 other provinces and territories to agree on something I can see why they just announced it now. 

 

My prediction is that what's considered "acceptable" documentation for MB will be clarified and any provinces (East Coast) that reciprocate will not be required to self isolate. 

 

This legislation puts Manitoba in charge of when people from other Provinces, or countries, are permitted free access to Manitoba.  Manitoba’s move is about control.  It’s a politician thing.  It is targeted at having control over free movement even if other jurisdictions approve it.

The Federal Government is no longer in charge of when our international boarder opens and free movement returns within all of Canada.  Now we need approval from multi layers of government with regard to Manitoba. If every Province did this we would have a hodgepodge of reopening rules and bureaucracy post pandemic that would imperil economic recovery and limit civil liberties.

Its possible Manitoba may intend to open to other Provinces, but how? The Federal vaccine passport is meant for international travel only.  Many Canadians won’t bother as they don’t travel. At least three provinces are not going to follow suit.  What about foreigners?  The Federal Government is about to erect a vaccine requirement for entry into Canada. Why would Manitoba tell these people they have to quarantine?  A group of fully vaccinated US fishermen is safer than a group of Canadians who are probably 70% vaccinated.  

Maybe that’s it.  Maybe Manitoba plans to keep unvaccinated Canadians out?  That is a charter violation.  You can get away with infringing on civil liberties during a pandemic.  Not after.

The road block Manitoba has put up is for one reason.  Palliser is saying “I have control”. What he does with that control we will have to see.  But he didn’t bring in a Provincial vaccine passport not to use it.

Again it doesn’t surprise me that one of the more isolationist Provinces during the Pandemic has chosen this route just as reopening is being talked about.  So far it is simply one Province.  So far the Maritimes has not followed suit.  They have a lot more to lose in tourism than Manitoba so I’m hoping they don’t follow their lead.

There is also the risk of this turning into an interprovincial pissing match.  That would produce the same unwanted results.