TWATM

[Mitch Cronin]

Our little star, and it's system of planets -including this tiny little rock we call the Earth - takes about 200 million years to complete a single orbit around the center of our little galaxy... It's only done so about 23 times in it's lifetime... and by the time it's completed about 50 orbits, our dear little star will have completely consumed it's hydrogen, and during it's last little dance, will expand to consume our planet, before it finally collapses into a white dwarf...

The whole of human existence hasn't even seen a single degree of a single orbit yet.

Meanwhile, our galaxy floats about in a sea of emptiness, gently tugging and being tugged by other nearby galaxies, which together float about in an even larger sea of billions of galaxies...

We are closer to nothing, in all of that, than a drop of water in an ocean.

With that in mind..... it occurs to me that the only thing that can possibly matter, is how we treat each other. ... the only thing of any real value: our relationships.

Chew on that the next time you meet some arrogant stuffed shirt who thinks he's more important than you.

[Don Hudson]

Chew on that the next time you meet some arrogant stuffed shirt who thinks he's more important than you.

...or less important than you.

Great post, Mitch. When one is doing well, one tough emotion to resist because it creeps in, is hubris - a sense of self-satisfaction, ("satisficed"). The notion of grace is relevant here I think - Grace is not a humbleness in the sense that (from Wayne's World), "we're not worthy!...", etc, but is a tacit (in my view, necessary) acknowledgement that none of this (the world and us in the world) is a 'given', is somehow 'automatic', that we are 'chosen' and that the world is something to expect along with pleasant, satisfying, (entitled) outcomes "for us". As Sagan mentioned in Cosmos, "we are star-stuff", and here, we are "of nature". When we "conquer/destroy nature" we conquer/destroy ourselves.

Some dimiss this and the more practical expressions of this dimly-seen comprehension of our place in the world as just so much left-wing, eco-freak rhetoric and when such rhetoric is motivated by power, ego or position, it is. I don't think Rachel Carson was such a person.

In my own mind I am still reviewing the dialogue on "religion and evolution" we had often engaged in here; Greg's views and mine always clashed (even as we had beers together) but the dialogue doesn't stop except when special interests or insecurities inform the dialogue.

Jackie Derrida, (an Algerian Jew, educated in France and, some say, responsible for the notion of "deconstruction"), said, "What do I love when I love my God?" When we look at our Galaxy and realize the enormity of your statement (re that we haven't even gone around once), where is God?

These are not questions that beg for an answer in the traditional way or form. All of us here know very well "what" the answers are according to what I would call "stale thought". Historicity is many traces interpreted by many more minds. The texts that we study are the traces of thought-on-the-move, and, frozen on the page, remain always already on the move.

Plato talked about "the Ideal" - Universals which "underlie" our concepts of "red", of "triangle", of "God". Scholars write (their) interpretations and these are studies in dark halls of institutions. Those aren't final answers; ecumencial conferences thrive on the notion of interpretation; academic and spiritual repuations are made or broken on the activity of interpretation. We are always "talking into" the context. "Knowing more" may actually be a hindrance; words are always already interpreted and do not have referents behind them as solid, unchanging entities to which words merely point.

Nor do we merely "live in a house of language, alone". Language is always already on the move, forever "coming into being", never static. So when we "express ourselves" on God, on the stock market, on our so-called "right/left-wing views", etc, etc, we gesture and signify but we never can peel away the layers of reality's onion, to "get to the bottom" of meaning.

This is what some philosophers call "the hermeneutic fix"....until we deeply understand the notion and live within it, I'd call it a jam because we can't escape it, much as we try. When we "name" something and that name gradually becomes synonymous with the thing named, what have we done but substituted the name for the thing named. But they are never, ever the same 'thing'. What do I love when I love "God"?

Far from claims of nihilism from the Existentialists, (who still have a great deal to say), such views are not at all depressing but releasing, even exhilarating; passion is not in any way dissuaded but perhaps the more ordinary logical "proofs" for God's "existence" may be.

So in one way Mitch, perhaps in an anticipated way, your call to be kind to one another and that the importance of "us" lies in 'relationship', you describe what must be, what is necessary, what is the only way we live.

When we use language, we cannot extract ourselves from the "context" of the words we use including those which we intend to express our deepest, most heart-felt thoughts; meaning is derived from relationship/context, including our own 'context'; our definition of "importance" derived from relationship. Of all that we remember of encounters with others, we remember how we felt, not what we or they possessed.

Nature doesn't brag: We do.

When we gaze upon the notion of the "heat death" millions of years from now, after which our little light round which we travel goes out..., what to we love when we love our Home?

Don

[GDR]

Hi Mitch

I agree with the conclusion that you draw except that I would go further and say that how we treat each other is of primary importance, then I would add that how we treat all of, (and here is where my Christian bias comes in  ) God’s creation, from wildlife to the environment,is important.

I know that you read that book “Quantum Enigma” which talked a great length about consciousness. I recently read a book, (I e-mailed you about it) called Biocentrism

The following is a well written article on the subject Biocentrism: How Life Creates the Universe

All of this has caused me to view the vastness of the universe in a totally different light. The idea that the universe only exists because it is perceived ties together many of the big questions in physics.

Also for Don. That was an excellent post and I agree with what you say. I would like to add though that I don’t see any problem existing between the Christian faith and science. As far as evolution is concerned, it can be accurate whether it is a system of random chance or one that has been designed. (I know we’ve gone over that before but I just wanted to be clear. )

It is an interesting world but as you say Mitch say it’s all about love and relationship. It only becomes difficult when we try to figure out how to put it into practice.

Cheers

Greg

[Guest The Real World]

Well said. Thanks Mitch.

[Mitch Cronin]

Hi Don... good to see your smiling face.

Thanks for your thoughtful post... once again, I'm afraid I'm not able to do it much justice in terms of the response it deserves, but I'll have a go....

"or less important than you."

Absolutely. In the vastness of time and space, we and the tiniest of insects we so readily dispatch, are essentially equals in our nothingness. Does our ability to contemplate that question make us more meaningful, or important? When does "life" become valuable? When does any life become "important"? ... does it matter, really, if our whole planet is suddenly destroyed?

I'm a little uneasy with an awareness that nothing matters... But it's so. None of this... not our daily struggles, not airplanes, not the business world, not our personal wants, not our esteemed famous ones, not our goals, not our ancestors, not the G20, not presidents, prime ministers, kings and queens, not a single, solitary sod on this earth is of any more importance than the bugs I squashed on my truck while driving to work. The ONLY thing that can be of any importance is how we treat each other, because what we are, and how treat one another, is all we have.

When we "conquer/destroy nature" we conquer/destroy ourselves.

Quantum physics has shown us some mind numbing notions of connectivity in the micro-world, which shatter our "knowledge" of time and space... I think what you wrote there will one day be widely understood, and accepted. ...if sanity and science manage to survive religious based governance.

Some dimiss this and the more practical expressions of this dimly-seen comprehension of our place in the world as just so much left-wing, eco-freak rhetoric and when such rhetoric is motivated by power, ego or position, it is. I don't think Rachel Carson was such a person.

I'm gonna have to google her... rings no bells.... but I reckon such dismissals are merely indications of closed mindedness and confused priorities. Probably most of our population run about their lives having not the slightest inkling of what's really worthwhile, or what's truly valuable.

In my own mind I am still reviewing the dialogue on "religion and evolution" we had often engaged in here

... me too... an odd story that sort of fits here:

There's a place above my back deck where I've hung a really heavy hunk of wood that's been carved.... Last summer, while I sat admiring a six sided picnic table I'd built, I realized I was sitting right under it and thought it might be wise to avoid the potential for harm by moving my chair... after I moved, I thought of how amazing it would be if the wood were to fall now... So I said out loud, "God, if you make this wood fall now, I'll believe in you." it didn't fall.... Later, when the preacher from down the road was here chatting with me, I told him about that, and, aside from telling me things like "God doesn't respond to tests", he told me he felt sure it would fall some time. ... I explained, to him, to my religious friends, and two religious brothers, that it's not a "test" at all. It's an open invitation for their "God" to let me know he's there.... if he drops the wood, I'm an instant believer. If that's what "He" wants, he's got it. The wood still hangs. (the preacher joked about sneaking by late some night to knock it down, but he's got more faith than humour I guess... )... in any case, those who tell me the proof "God" exists is all around us, would evidently have me believe that blind faith - that is, faith that's born of belief in fairy tales from the bible and other unproven and uncertain means - is somehow more meaningful than a faith that would only come through such a direct showing of God's face.

To them I say bunk! If there is a God, and if such a being really does give a hoot whether or not I believe he/she exists, then he/she will know exactly why I don't yet believe it... and knocking that wood down would fix that. ....still it hangs.

"So in one way Mitch, perhaps in an anticipated way, your call to be kind to one another and that the importance of "us" lies in 'relationship', you describe what must be, what is necessary, what is the only way we live.

I met a man on another forum who was dying of cancer, and wrote: "a man's greatest gift to himself is his honour" [the late Les Maike, aka "Duke Elegant" ] With apologies to him, I'd say a man couldn't possibly give himself anything else worth spit.

"When we gaze upon the notion of the "heat death" millions of years from now, after which our little light round which we travel goes out..., what to we love when we love our Home?

....our relationships with those we love. What else could possibly be of any value?

Hi Greg... also good to "see" your smiling face in here...

Thanks for your email [since I've been using this Mac, I've had to learn the ins and outs of several new styles of program... not the least of the challenges have come from the Mail program... I previously used Eudora, from the time I first signed on to the internet, nothing else.... Yours is not the last email to slide by unnoticed.... I'm learning though. ] and thanks for this post... I've ordered the book. Sounds much like something I'd like to read...

I agree with you completely. All relationships are valuable, and all of life is as "worthy" as the next. See above.

re: "it’s all about love and relationship. It only becomes difficult when we try to figure out how to put it into practice. "

What's to practice? We are what we are... if we recognize a need to change what we are, we will. Some people have trouble allowing themselves to love and be kind.... I think that's only because they're confused about what matters. Our world doesn't generally teach the truth about that. Not the world I've seen at any rate... I can go to work and fix airplanes because that's important to my wife, and the money for education is important to my kids... They don't see the world the way I do, but that's OK.... I suspect not many do. ...loving is easy. I think it comes quite naturally to us... but we learn to guard ourselves against hurt, over time.... I suppose a lifetime of that kind of training can take some effort to overcome.

Anyway... my mind's ablaze with all sorts of things at the moment... Rosalie's 19 today... much is happening here that wants my attention.

Cheers all.

Mitch

[Mr Sparkle]

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving

And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,

That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,

A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see

Are moving at a million miles a day

In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,

Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.

It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.

It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,

But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.

We go 'round every two hundred million years,

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions

In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding

In all of the directions it can whizz

As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,

Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,

And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

Monty Python

[Specs]

So I said out loud, "God, if you make this wood fall now, I'll believe in you." it didn't fall....

Mitch

Sorry about that. He was busy that night over here getting me out of a speeding ticket.

seriously though - doesn't your test presuppose that God is listening to you at that moment? If in fact he was then for what purpose? To answer all of of your questions with a sign? Hardly think that's reasonable expectation of a supreme being.

My observations of religious belief (for which I have none)

Religion requires faith that there is a higher purpose to life. Those that figure out the higher purpose and strive to achieve it move on to the next step once leaving this life. It's the faith that's essential though. Without it you can't truly strive to achieve that higher purpose, only mimic it, and ultimately, at some point, inevitably question it again and thus fail. Proof of god then denies the individual the chance for faith and ultimatley redemption/enlightenment/everlasting life/.....etc.

As to the rest of the posts - I think of Nelson Mandela. I know nothing about him other that what's been written in the popular press. (I expect I'll be visiting Chapters theis weekend to remedy that) I'm simply staggerred by how he assumed leadership of the country and after what he went through, has managed to keep the social upheaval to a minimum. SA's no paradise I know but nobody can deny it's a far cry from what could have been had some tribal chief with a vendetta or penchant for greed been running things.

It's a pretty remarkable man that can do what he did and I wonder where he got the stuff that made him so capable. Was it faith in a higher purpose, or acceptance that we're alone and realization that we need to get along? Was it borne of a pragmatic economic and social need or some combination of pragmatism and faith?

[boestar]

I have a simple look at "Faith" and Religion.

Everyone has their "Own" version of God. Some are told what the version of God should be, others figure it out for them selves. Main Stream religion has managed to "share" (impose would be a better term) their version of God with the masses. I have Faith in a higher power but I will figure out what that higher power is. In the grand scheme of thing each of "our version" of God leads us to the same conclusion.

If God is "real" then my "version" (or expectation) of what God is may differ from anothers version but may well be the same "entity" Until God reveals him/herself then each of our versions are just speculation on our part.

One can have faith in many things but the most important is faith in ones self. Have faith in yourself and strive to be the best person you can and that will be your path.

[Mitch Cronin]

Hi Specs... (I think you might have stopped reading after the part you quoted?) It wasn't/isn't a test. ...and it wasn't a one time, now or never deal. The only way that wood is going to come down is with some form of intervention... human, or divine....

The notion that "faith" in a deity is worth more if it's blind, is a necessary concoction of the religious who have no proof in their supreme being. Of course they'd say that!

My invitation was/is just a different way to say, ok, if you exist, and you want - as many Christians will tell me - little old me to join your crowd of followers, here's an easy way to achieve that... any time.

I know people who believe that what some refer to as "God" is a collective consciousness that we're all a part of... This, I could believe... Not a single supreme being, but an entanglement of energy... where space and time are irrelevant, and awareness of the entire universe just is. ... now, just why it would be that some of that energy occasionally occupies such limited organic creatures such as ourselves....? I give up.

[boestar]

Well there is the whole jist of it...

Did God create Man or did man create God? That has been the question since time began.

There are so mnay paradoxes on all sides of the argument that it is difficult to know what is "REAL"

Millions of people would be very dissappointed if it were discovered that the humand race and all creatures on the 3rd rock from the sun were, for lack of a better term, an accident.

[GDR]

I do know that in the next life I'm going to all the lectures.

[Specs]

. ... now, just why it would be that some of that energy occasionally occupies such limited organic creatures such as ourselves....? I give up.

My dilema as well.

I'm also curious as to why, in all the accounts we have from the clinically dead pot resuscitation - why do their recollections of the experience always relate a white light. Why have none of em ever said - "..What white light? There weren't no white light. There was a red glow that sort of fell away from me - stunk like rotten eggs though and boy was it hot!!....."

You know - if somebody told me that was what they remembered - Boy oh boy - I'd sure be be rethinking a lot of things pdq.

Until then.......?