Televised "Debate"

[Mitch Cronin]

I think maybe I need to hear from the leader of the Green party.

[Mitch Cronin]

Wow... Martin on Quebec! "This is my country!" Dunno if he rehearsed that or not, but he pulled it off well.

[AIP]

Wow... Martin on Quebec! "This is my country!" Dunno if he rehearsed that or not, but he pulled it off well.

Mitch, that is the best thing I have EVER heard from Paul Martin.

Clear, Concise, and Passionate.

On the rest he was his usual fuddy, duddy, dithering self.

[mrlupin]

I just caught th end of the debate (I thought it was ar 10:00) but Paul Martin certainly did a better performance in English than he did in French. I just heard Harper's closing speech.

How did the Conservatives fair in the debate? Who won the debate?

Éric

[handyman]

How did the Conservatives fair in the debate? Who won the debate?

It was hardly a debate do to the format but it was good to see each party's platform. I wish the 2nd half of the 2 hour event had been more the traditional debate format though.

This is how I rate the debate.

on public speaking,

NDP won even if he didn't respect the time limit,

CPC a close second,

LIB a distant third...

BLOQ a close fourth (not bad considering it's not his mother tongue).

On getting his point across,

NDP, CPC, BLOQ all tied for first

LIB much weaker except when he stated "this is my province" otherwise too much dithering.

Who fired the best shots?

NDP and BLOQ both on Martin.

[Mitch Cronin]

Yep, not a debate at all... Surprised to hear you say that about Layton Handyman... I thought he looked the most contrived. ...phoney even... reminded me of those guys that do their own ads for their car lots.

That one moment from Martin was pretty good... it appeared to be genuine passion, and it hit home for me... as if he'd spoken for me... but I agree that the rest from him was bumbling.... Harper flubbed a few lines and stammered over a word or two due to time pressures, but overall, I thought he came across as a pretty forthright character. .. still, I don't know...

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

Anyway, ...I know I won't vote Liberal, on principal alone. I won't be voting NDP... .... ... ...

[AIP]

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

Anyway, ...I know I won't vote Liberal, on principal alone. I won't be voting NDP... .... ... ...

Mitch, in most other countries, it would be called treason.

[handyman]

Yep, not a debate at all... Surprised to hear you say that about Layton Handyman... I thought he looked the most contrived. ...phoney even... reminded me of those guys that do their own ads for their car lots.

But he always looks like that. He was well spoken but I really thought it was unpolished of him to go beyond his time limit 10-12 times.

That one moment from Martin was pretty good... it appeared to be genuine passion, and it hit home for me... as if he'd spoken for me... but I agree that the rest from him was bumbling.... Harper flubbed a few lines and stammered over a word or two due to time pressures, but overall, I thought he came across as a pretty forthright character. .. still, I don't know...

I was very pleased that he didn't bite onto Martin's hook. It looked like Martin was trying to engage Harper on 2-3 occasions but he wouldn't bite.

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

I am very anti-Quebec at times but I do enjoy hearing Duceppe speak. I think he is an honest person with some great ideas and holds more passion then any other leader. That being said I do wish his party didn't have an agenda to break up Canada. I must also admit I found compassion for his party tonight when he said we are not anti-Canada we are just different. He went on to say just like Canada is different than the USA Quebec is different than Canada. You know, he's right! Wish we could find a way of making Quebecer's happy within Canada. I think the French culture is something to exploit further with tourism etc.

[mrlupin]

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

The Bloc did a very good job in the French Debate, I think it's fair to say that Gilles Ducepe is the best public speaker when it comes to French. His thoughts and ideas come out crystal clear and he never loses coherence in his speeches.

That being said, the Quebec population is extremely angry at the Liberals at the moment, we can be sure the Liberals will lose seats in the upcoming election. Gilles Ducepe does a good job of representing the Quebec interest, it just so happen that the interest of approx 50% of the people is to separate from Canada. While I am not a supporter of such an idea, when Ducepe was in the French debate,he put allot of emphasis on the fact that he was representing Quebec's interest in Ottawa. What more could any citizen ask for? a politician that represents your interests. Mr Ducepe was confronted with a question on separation during the French debate and he put it quite clearly, no taxation without representation. His speech and ideas we're quite good on Thursday.

I am very anti-Quebec at times but I do enjoy hearing Duceppe speak. I think he is an honest person with some great ideas and holds more passion then any other leader. That being said I do wish his party didn't have an agenda to break up Canada. I must also admit I found compassion for his party tonight when he said we are not anti-Canada we are just different. He went on to say just like Canada is different than the USA Quebec is different than Canada. You know, he's right! Wish we could find a way of making Quebecer's happy within Canada. I think the French culture is something to exploit further with tourism etc.

Maybe if Ottawa wasn't interfering in the provinces field of competence so much, that would ease the problem.... slim chance of that happening with the Liberals! Let the provinces deal with their issues, if the Feds want to to increase spending on health care or education,increase the transfer payments but please.... please stick to your responsibilities!

[Mitch Cronin]

I must also admit I found compassion for his party tonight when he said we are not anti-Canada we are just different. He went on to say just like Canada is different than the USA Quebec is different than Canada. You know, he's right! Wish we could find a way of making Quebecer's happy within Canada. I think the French culture is something to exploit further with tourism etc.

Quebec is certainly different than the other provinces (as are they all!), but it is not different than Canada! Canada is what it is, in no small part, because Quebec is a part of it... Quebec is as much a part of Canada as every other province, without which we'd lose a great deal of our culture... no matter which one.

Yes, Quebec is different... so is every single other province! Combined, we make a great country because of that diversity.

This rift seems to have been perpetuated by the homeboys in Quebec who've gotten a taste of federal power, without appreciating the taste of the ROC. It needs to be slaughtered where it stands! Stuff Duceppe! and stuff all of those treasonous scums that would take all they can from Canada and declare themselves "different"! That is what Canada is.... "different". ...and that's a big part of what makes it so great to be Canadian. We like "different", we grew up with "different", and we're all "different" because of that.

Ducepe may not know it, but he's very much a Canadian.... almost textbook style Quebec Canadian.... He, and those Quebecers who choose to consider themselves not Canadian have lost sight of what makes them what they are... and it's Canada.

[handyman]

Quebec is certainly different than the other provinces (as are they all!), but it is not different than Canada! Canada is what it is, in no small part, because Quebec is a part of it... Quebec is as much a part of Canada as every other province, without which we'd lose a great deal of our culture... no matter which one.

Yes, Quebec is different... so is every single other province! Combined, we make a great country because of that diversity.

This rift seems to have been perpetuated by the homeboys in Quebec who've gotten a taste of federal power, without appreciating the taste of the ROC. It needs to be slaughtered where it stands! Stuff Duceppe! and stuff all of those treasonous scums that would take all they can from Canada and declare themselves "different"! That is what Canada is.... "different". ...and that's a big part of what makes it so great to be Canadian. We like "different", we grew up with "different", and we're all "different" because of that.

Ducepe may not know it, but he's very much a Canadian.... almost textbook style Quebec Canadian.... He, and those Quebecers who choose to consider themselves not Canadian have lost sight of what makes them what they are... and it's Canada.

So how do you really feel Mitch?

...and that's a big part of what makes it so great to be Canadian. We like "different", we grew up with "different", and we're all "different" because of that.

You certainly are a "great Canadian" Mitch.

[GDR]

That one moment from Martin was pretty good... it appeared to be genuine passion, and it hit home for me... as if he'd spoken for me... but I agree that the rest from him was bumbling.... Harper flubbed a few lines and stammered over a word or two due to time pressures, but overall, I thought he came across as a pretty forthright character. .. still, I don't know...

Hi Mitch

I just wanted to add a quick thought here. Take a look at everything that Martin said. Most of the time his speaking was puntuated by uh's and ah's etc as does just about everybody. That little speech he gave to Duceppe was delivered flawlessly. That part was written previously and well rehearsed.

I'd also have to suggest that the emotion was just as well rehearsed. The media seems to love that sort of thing so I guess it works.

Greg

[Guest rance]

My favourite moment....

During the discussion on re- opening gay marriage the bloc had said that the issue had already been decided by the cdn people so why do we have to have another referundum on the issue.

A little hypocritical coming from the bloc isn't it?

[Guest long keel]

I found Gilles is a likeable man, whose politics I better understand now than before. (Not that I agree with them.) The USA analogy lit a light buld for me. If they wish to go so be it. In marriage, one partner shouldn't keep another in against their will to simply save face and appear in control. However with Charest in power I think more Quebecers want to remain, and the Bloc is the best protest alternative to the Liberals with the PC's too right in a left leaning province, and the NDP not on their radar.

I think Greg's comments above about Martin are bang on. Otherwise I don't know when he answered a question directly. Watch the man next debate, the more stressed and nervous he gets the more he waves his arm around like they aren't even under his own control. I learned nothing new from him other than thinking his 20 seconds with GD was entertaining. He comes across very arrogantly to me.

Layton is one polished speaker. I noticed he smartly ignored everyone but Martin, and focuses all his attacks on the one guy who will steal his voters. Sadly he seemed unable to finish a sentence without name dropping two NDP dino-royalty (Eds Broadbent +Schrier) which grew tiresome. Also many of the questions he appeared to only half listen to and use the topic to springboard into short campaign speeches, rather than answer the question from a voter.

Harper did fine. He seemed relaxed, and he answered most questions more directly than most. He will never go down as the worlds most theatrical passionate speaker. I don't see this as all bad. I like the level headed types for a boss, whether its in the flight deck or office. I liked his closing olympic hockey analogy. I'm also glad to see him (the only one who did) promise to make the senate elected. The one thing he didn't do was go on the attack. Here I would prefer to see the guy seem a little more fired up. Attack how the self proclaimed savior of public medicine has a private clinic doctor outside the public system; how the gun registry failed, how the senate and the courts are all selected by one man (PM) without any form of check or balance; how parlimentry reforms never happened.

There wasn't a clear winner for me. I gained new respect for the leaders of the NDP and Bloc. Even though I don't like their politics, I like them personally more than the Liberal leader. My personal politics are socially liberal and fiscally conservative which would make me more of a natural choice to pick the the liberal party...but

I will vote PC as I think 13 years was long enough to have the Liberals achieve in areas of crime (sentencing), health care, dealing with Quebec seperatists, and Western alienation. Their policy on continuing to rape the aviation industry (taxes, rents, ineffective security) despite knowing it is causing industry harm while running record surplusses is inexcusable. I have no trust in them to govern responsibly with a majority. If returned to power after being found guilty in the sponsorship scandal would in effect be saying "steal from us, we don't care". I find thieves to be the lowest upright walking lifeform. I think the present crew are thieves, or turned a blind eye to others stealing to protect their own hide. Either way it means I can never support the party until they clean house for real. (Jail sentences for the guilty)

I have no fear of the gay marriage legislation which I support being repealed under a free vote. In the 80's Mulroney allowed a free vote on Capital Punishment that closed the issue once and for all. The fact that Harper says he will not use the not withstanding clause removes this barrier against voting PC for me. Issues of morality should not be controled by party whips. Martin said the cabinet had to support the legislation or lose their position. It's a shame Martin didn't have the trust that this would go through without using the iron fist on his inner circle. If the last vote was a free vote, I think the PC's would have left this one alone.

Finally, its a shame the Greens weren't allowed on stage. Either include them, or restrict this to a two man debate between Martin and Harper since in the end only one of these two will be the Prime Minister.

[Mitch Cronin]

Hi Greg,

Maybe you can help me with something... ?

I've just come from the Conservative's web site, where I'd been looking to get a better idea of specifics in their policy... I see the sell, and several of the same lines he spoke last night, but I couldn't find what I was looking for... and that may be because what I'm looking for may not exist?

I'll explain...

At some point as I routed around and found nothing new to me, I had a thought flash through my mind that maybe I was trying to find an answer to the question you'd asked me earlier, "Why would hate to see Harper win?" ...and if I couldn't find the answer, does that mean that feeling only remains from past disgust with the Mulroney era Conservatives, and is no longer valid?

When you asked, all I could come up with at the time was something about vague notions of conservatives being in bed with big business all the time... But these are different conservatives..... and then I tripped over this again:

Banning corporate and union donations, while limiting personal donations to $1,000;

Overhauling lobbying laws and banning all ministers, ministerial staffers or senior public officials from lobbying government for five years after leaving their post;

Give more power to the Lobbyists Registrar, Ethics Commissioner, Information Commissioner and the Auditor General, and;

Give the Auditor General a mandate to conduct a complete review of the more than $30 billion in annual federal grants, contributions and contracts.

I've eliminated the Liberals as an option this time 'round... NDP fiscal management scares the dickens out of me... a vote for the Green party might send a message of some airy-fairy variety, but only if large masses did so would it be worth anything, and I don't have a good feeling that will be likely to happen.... so I'm left wondering what it is that makes me so reluctant to put my X in the Conservative candidate's box?....

There's a trace of concern about mixing religion with politics that remains from Stockwell Day's presence with the Canadian Alliance party, but overall, I think it's just a fear of too many redneck wacko's and extremists with a variety of weird opinions, but maybe they can be handled reasonably well as they come out to play... and surely any party will have a few of those...

I guess I know who I'll probably vote for...

Thanks Greg.

[CD]

I will vote PC...

That will be kind of difficult as the Progressive Conservative (PC) party ceased to exist in 2003.

Finally, its a shame the Greens weren't allowed on stage.  Either include them, or restrict this to a two man debate between Martin and Harper since in the end only one of these two will be the Prime Minister.

Agreed.

[handyman]

I have no fear of the gay marriage legislation which I support being repealed under a free vote. In the 80's Mulroney allowed a free vote on Capital Punishment that closed the issue once and for all. The fact that Harper says he will not use the not withstanding clause removes this barrier against voting PC for me. Issues of morality should not be controled by party whips. Martin said the cabinet had to support the legislation or lose their position. It's a shame Martin didn't have the trust that this would go through without using the iron fist on his inner circle. If the last vote was a free vote, I think the PC's would have left this one alone.

I believe I could mirror your assessment as we obviously feel the same about the issues and the debate.

I too have no problem with a free vote on gay marriages. If it passes then that's democracy at work and if it doesn't then maybe our society is just not ready for it and more time is required for people to accept it. I do believe that if they called it a "civil union" it would pass immediately. I believe I heard correctly the other day that Canada and 1 other nation were the only ones that accept "Gay Marriages" all other accepting countries call it a civil union.

[handyman]

There's a trace of concern about mixing religion with politics that remains from Stockwell Day's presence with the Canadian Alliance party, but overall, I think it's just a fear of too many redneck wacko's and extremists with a variety of weird opinions, but maybe they can be handled reasonably well as they come out to play... and surely any party will have a few of those...

Hi Mitch,

Just wanted to say that Harper is no more religious than Martin. Saying that, the CPC position on gay marriages does not make them a religious party. Many people with traditional values feel this way without ever stepping a foot inside a church!

I used to despise the Mulroney Conservatives and voted Liberal on many occasions. But like you said, this is not the PC party of past nor is it the Reform Party either. I find the CPC more neutral or centered with the occasion left of centre glance.

[Lakelad]

There's a trace of concern about mixing religion with politics that remains from Stockwell Day's presence with the Canadian Alliance party, but overall, I think it's just a fear of too many redneck wacko's and extremists with a variety of weird opinions, but maybe they can be handled reasonably well as they come out to play... and surely any party will have a few of those...

Currently penned & muzzled. They will release those hounds after the election.

[Guest woxof]

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

I completely disagree. I am quite proud that Canada was able to have the Bloc as the Leaders of the opposition. Why? Not because I like them. Nothing would make me happier than to see them disappear forever because they got voted out.

But, one must remember something. like it or not we have a classic setup in this country for civil strife. We avoided it narrowly back in the early '70's with the FLQ. Every situation is different but there are many similarities to Northern Ireland or Yugoslavia or the Basque region. Yet we have been able to go through this whole thing peacefully and be able to live without the violence that has gripped so many countries due to different cultures in the same country unable to coexist with each other. We see it so often on the news. Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Catholic vs. Protestant, Hutu vs.Tutsi or just the IRA and the ETA and the PKK.

As far as I'm concerned, Canada is a model to the world on how this sort of situation should be dealt with and if Quebec votes to leave on a CLEAR question then so be it. The U.S. took a different path under Lincoln. Mitch's ideas are the first step down that other path and it is not worth it. The people in Quebec have voted peacefully for the BQ in many ridings and Canada is a democracy. The BQ may mislead and lie to people people but so do the other parties. Time to reconsider the potential consequenses of your ideas.

Sorry if I changed the direction of this thread.

[handyman]

Currently penned & muzzled. They will release those hounds after the election.

Booo...just kidding. Booo really, just kidding...Booo

[Guest woxof]

I still cannot for the life of me understand why on earth we've allowed a federal party to exist that wants to destroy our country... It's absolute insanity to let that madness continue uncorrected! Screw the Bloc... they're a provincial party, not a federal one and they have no place in a federal election! Whatever laws that exist that permit their inclusion need correction yesterday! If it's the constitution, it's time for a bloody amendment!

I completely disagree. I am quite proud that Canada was able to have the Bloc as the Leaders of the opposition. Why? Not because I like them. Nothing would make me happier than to see them disappear forever because they got voted out.

But, one must remember something. like it or not we have a classic setup in this country for civil strife. We avoided it narrowly back in the early '70's with the FLQ. Every situation is different but there are many similarities to Northern Ireland or Yugoslavia or the Basque region. Yet we have been able to go through this whole thing peacefully and be able to live without the violence that has gripped so many countries due to different cultures in the same country unable to coexist with each other. We see it so often on the news. Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Catholic vs. Protestant, Hutu vs.Tutsi or just the IRA and the ETA and the PKK.

As far as I'm concerned, Canada is a model to the world on how this sort of situation should be dealt with and if Quebec votes to leave on a CLEAR question then so be it. The U.S. took a different path under Lincoln. Mitch's ideas are the first step down that other path and it is not worth it. The people in Quebec have voted peacefully for the BQ in many ridings and Canada is a democracy. The BQ may mislead and lie to people people but so do the other parties. Time to reconsider the potential consequenses of your ideas.

[GDR]

Hi Greg,

Maybe you can help me with something... ? 

I've just come from the Conservative's web site, where I'd been looking to get a better idea of specifics in their policy...  I see the sell, and several of the same lines he spoke last night, but I couldn't find what I was looking for... and that may be because what I'm looking for may not exist?

I'll explain...

At some point as I routed around and found nothing new to me, I had a thought flash through my mind that maybe I was trying to find an answer to the question you'd asked me earlier, "Why would hate to see Harper win?" ...and if I couldn't find the answer, does that mean that feeling only remains from past disgust with the Mulroney era Conservatives, and is no longer valid?

When you asked, all I could come up with at the time was something about vague notions of conservatives being in bed with big business all the time...  But these are different conservatives..... and then I tripped over this again:

Banning corporate and union donations, while limiting personal donations to $1,000;

Overhauling lobbying laws and banning all ministers, ministerial staffers or senior public officials from lobbying government for five years after leaving their post;

Give more power to the Lobbyists Registrar, Ethics Commissioner, Information Commissioner and the Auditor General, and;

Give the Auditor General a mandate to conduct a complete review of the more than $30 billion in annual federal grants, contributions and contracts.

I've eliminated the Liberals as an option this time 'round... NDP fiscal management scares the dickens out of me... a vote for the Green party might send a message of some airy-fairy variety, but only if large masses did so would it be worth anything, and I don't have a good feeling that will be likely to happen.... so I'm left wondering what it is that makes me so reluctant to put my X in the Conservative candidate's box?....

There's a trace of concern about mixing religion with politics that remains from Stockwell Day's presence with the Canadian Alliance party, but overall, I think it's just a fear of too many redneck wacko's and extremists with a variety of weird opinions, but maybe they can be handled reasonably well as they come out to play... and surely any party will have a few of those...

I guess I know who I'll probably vote for... 

Thanks Greg. 

Hi Mitch

I'll try to answer your questions. The Conservative policy document was taken off the web site at the time of the election so that presumably it wouldn't be confused with the platform. The platform is however totally consistent with the party policy that was voted on by delegates at the YUL convention.

If you like I can e-mail the policy document to you.

The concept of the CPC being in bed with big business is not any more correct than saying that the Liberals are in bed with big business. It is a balancing act no matter which party you belong to. The CPC policy is based on the idea that by supporting the little guy and by putting more money in his pocket, it will help all business, both big and small.

I tend to think that the largest systemic problem that we have with government in this country is that it is to top down and leader driven. Paul Martin as PM appoints the cabinet, appoints most committee positions, appoints supreme court judges, appoints the Governor General, appoints Senators, signs the nomination papers of all Liberal candidates, appoints heads of crown corporations and a whole lot more that I can't come up with off the top of my head. He is a virtual dictator.

Stephen Harper as PM wants to lessen the dictatorial control that the PM has. He wants an elected senate, have all party committess for judicial appointments, have set election dates. He wants far more power in the hands of the watch-dogs of government like the auditor general. The idea is that Stephen Harper will be able to exercise far less power than past PM’s and that many appointments that are now made in a partisan fashion will be non-partisan.

Let's take for example set election dates. Last year Paul Martin called an election, when he had a majority, solely because he felt it was the best strategic time for him. The Conservative party had just been formed and had just selected it's first leader. The Party had not had time to have a policy convention or even time to put together a coherent election team. He was right.

Because the election was called when it was the platform had to be cobbled together on the fly, and an election team quickly assembled. Even with that the Conservatives wound up with enough seats to put the Liberals in a minority position. There were however many gaffes which eventually did us in. (The worst was the handling of the child porn issue. )

As for the religious issue. I first met Stephen Harper 15 years ago. I truly don't even know if he goes to church. My support for him is based on his integrity and his ideas, not his religion, whatever it may be. There are those like myself who are Christian and who are Conservatives. I know other people in my church who are Liberal or NDP. As I Conservative Christian I do not believe that my views should be imposed but I do believe that I should be able to speak freely and that my opinion should be just as valid as the next guy. Frankly, in my view it is the Liberals who want to shut down debate and impose their views.

Take the same sex issue. It was the Paul Martin Liberals who forced the cabinet to vote in favour of the bill. (Jack Layton did the same with the entire NDP caucus.) Stephen Harper is committed to a free vote for all, although he can only commit to giving a free vote for all Conservative MPs. There will, as there was last time, be Conservatives on both sides of the issue.

Interestingly enough when Stockwell Day was deposed it was two Christians, (Deb Grey and Chuck Strahl), who led the movement against him. Frankly it has in many ways been the Christian element that has led the way in supporting the idea that MPs should represent the views of their constituents rather than their personal views. It is the LIberals who have been in favour of our paternalistic top down form of government.

There seems to be an unfortunate cross over in our thinking that confuses the church itself and people of religious faith. Every time the church itself gained political power it has been a disaster, for both the church and the country. (It started the French Revolution and rightly so.) Church leaders should not have any political power just because of their position in the church. This does not mean that those individuals who have religious beliefs should be excluded from political life.

I hope this helps Mitch.

Greg

PS. I have to agree with woxof on the issue of the Bloc. I think that it is a good demonstration of democracy in action.

[Mitch Cronin]

Interesting comparisons Woxof ... I can certainly appreciate the heart and intent for fairness behind your stance, but I don't know if those comparisons are appropriate.

Canada was originally created by French and English both... and every step of the way to where we are, we've had that bi-cultural aspect as a part of our foundation. The culture we've grown up with and passed on to our kids and they to theirs has been influenced, to varying degrees, by those roots.

Many of us, living all throughout Canada, have some portion of our own roots within Quebec. Yes, we've enhanced that culture considerably by welcoming other cultures as well... We've grown and we've spread, and we've managed to maintain a uniqueness that I'm proud of. All sorts of small towns in Ontario, the Maritimes, Manitoba, and further west are peppered with dollops of French Canadian culture, or a blend... and it enriches all of us.

I see Quebec as belonging to me and my kids as much as it does to any current resident there. Though I currently reside in Ontario, I'm a Canadian, not an Ontarian. And I treasure the French Canadian influence within our culture.

Let me ask you this: Suppose one of our growing Chinese communities were to form a political group of sorts ...and they eventually wound up all collecting together in one place and decided they'd like to carve a slice out of Canada for their own? Would we allow that? Would we permit the formation of a federal party that sought to make that a reality? I'd sure as hell fight it!

You can't take my arm, you can't take my foot, and I'll not stand by while you take away a part of my roots. The Canadian parliamentary system is supposed to provide us with good governance and a strong country. Allowing it to be infiltrated by those who seek Canada's destruction is outrageous.

Now.... Having said all that I'll admit it's an argument filled with emotion, and emotion frequently stands in opposition to good judgement... But this kind of debate isn't likely to continue without emotion, because it involves a raw side of the human psyche... Our territory, our history, our country, our children's country, and their future. You can take the most passionate separatist in Quebec, and I'll tell you the more passionate he is, the more convinced I am that he's my brother, and I feel ever more convinced that we want the same thing, and in fact it's what we have. Just as my brother will always be my brother, so too will Quebec always be a part of my Canada.

I know that sounds like schmultz, but tough. We're not big on that kind of schmultz here in Canada, unlike other countries we haven't ever needed to be I guess, but just because we don't often express it, that doesn't mean we don't feel it just as strongly as any other, more commonly expressive patriot. I'll not be embarrassed to hold our flag, or sing our praises, or stand in front of anyone who's goal is to dismantle Canada.

[Guest long keel]

woxof.

Great post.