Possible pilot strike at Delta

[Kip Powick]

ya gotta love the last line in this article

Delta Air Lines lost $1.13 billion during the third quarter, which brings the carrier's overall losses since January 2001 to a staggering total of more than $11 billion. Excluding one-time reorganization and other special items, Delta still lost $438 million during the quarter, The Associated Press reports.

Following the airline's loss, CEO Gerald Grinstein said Delta is "committed to moving quickly and decisively" to push a generate $3 billion through a combination of cost cuts and finding new revenue sources. Job and pay reductions are part of that effort, and that could be setting up a showdown with the airline's pilots.

Delta's most recent loss is expected to ratchet up the pressure on pilots to accept the airline's call for $325 million in pay and benefit cuts. Pilots say that's too much. If the pilots refuse to go along, however, Delta could use bankruptcy court to void the pilots' contracts, according to The Wall Street Journal.

If that happens, some pilots say they'd be willing to strike. "Delta cannot expect the Delta pilots necessarily to stand idly by if the [contract] is rejected …," the pilots' union is quoted as saying.

At a court hearing Thursday, bankruptcy judge Prudence Carter Beatty suggested that she thought Delta's pilots may in fact be overcompensated. But, the judge added, "What's really weird is that anyone agreed to pay them that much money to begin with."

[Vsplat]

Ah, just what we need. More expert opinion on what pilots are worth.

Meanwhile, wander into the Bay street watering holes Thursday night, and you'll find folks whose salaries would blow pilots' numbers off the map. Guys in their 20's and 30's whose investment in their career and personal risk are not commensurate with those who, for 'really wierd' reasons, agree to do the job of a pilot.

But, we've been around this track before...

Vs

[Dropzone]

Meanwhile, wander into the Bay street watering holes Thursday night, and you'll find folks whose salaries would blow pilots' numbers off the map.

The Golden Years are over for pilots. We just keep sinking even lower towards minimum wages.

If your mission is to make good money you should be looking at an entirely different career. As you said many other occupations offer significantly better compensation. My nephew (27) for example with only 4 years experience in advertising, made more than 200K (with bonuses) in 2004.

He's doing even better this year.

[Guest rattler]

I guess if the pilots at Delta do strike we may see another US carrier close it's doors forever or would we see pilot's crossing picket lines?

[better4me]

The Golden Years are over for pilots. We just keep sinking even lower towards minimum wages.

Pilots have a long, long, long way to go before you are at minimum wage standards.

Fat cats on this board should try living on 25k per year and really find out what living pay check to pay check is all about.

Granted, I have never been living at that standard without also being supported by the parents. Don't know if could take living at 20k per year knowing that one serious illness (2-3 weeks off work) could derail the financial plan for the entire year. Making the decision between eating, keeping warm, and having a place to live is quite different from deciding if its Florida or Cancun for winter vacation.

The top hat pension and top quartile wages may be over but pilots still do way better that at least 75% of Canadians.

[Dropzone]

Pilots have a long, long, long way to go before you are at minimum wage standards.

If you compare "white collar" compensation you will find pilots have continued to sink lower and lower on the ladder. We have been losing significant ground for the last 10 years and there is no reversal in sight. Unfortunately most won't realize it until it's too late to change careers.

[tsgas]

It's just supply and demand at work. When airlines are forced to park airplanes due to lack of pilots,then,only then will the tide shift direction.

In the mean time every Tom,Dick, and Suzzy think it's cool to be a pilot and will glandly pay for their PPC or fly for free while living at home with Mommy and Daddy.

[planett]

Better4me, a long way to go before minimum wage standards is right, in more ways than one. While I can't argue with your top end scenario, there are ten times more pilot jobs that are equally far below minimum wage. 25K would have seemed a retirement job. How do you do it without living with your parents? Rent a 4 bedroom house with 5 guys, pilots pay less for the smaller or makeshift bedrooms, guys with other jobs get the big bedrooms. Take in students to lower costs further.

When the '84 Ford Tempo breaks down, the choice becomes: Ball joints or groceries. Buying groceries means that you can no longer get to work when you need to. Auto repairs means another roommate buys groceries, again. Makes for some interesting accounting. Making 12-15 dollars an hour a decade ago sounded good at the time, but with no base and no minimum hourly guarantee, I would say minimum wage would be a long way to go.......up!

I'm sure most pilots on this forum have been through those days, they're no fun in your mid twenties, If I was faced with that again I would change careers in a heartbeat. I'm too cynical now to believe all that 'paying your dues' crap. I do feel that if pilots as a group are not vigilant, my mid-twenties lifestyle revealed above will be more common for future pilots throughout their whole careers.

[planett]

If pilots do better than 75% of Canadians, why is that bad?

[Guest prob30]

Well I think the cycle is just about to reverse. Not dramatically but modestly. We've had 5 yrs of pain, now the 3 largest airlines in Canada have "wage reopeners" coming next spring concurrent with a market shortage of supply (or at least a slight squeeze) due to pretty much every major being in hiring mode.

Jazz will be the first to raise pay to attract drivers as they're the current low man. WJ will follow suit as they play catch-up with longer upgrade times and their position as the only game in town for the last 5 yrs, as well with a flat share price and lower profit sharing since the last agreement. AC will never have a supply shortage, so they'll probably be the only ones that don't need to adjust wages, but ACPA will probably negotiate a modest increase along with the rest of the unions.

If ACE sees a new CEO in the new year, these wage "reopeners" would be a perfect opportunity to improve relations in the form of modest acknowledgement of the pain the employee groups have endured during the CCAA. The shareholders got theirs approved yesterday...

[rudder]

Well I think the cycle is just about to reverse.  Not dramatically but modestly.  We've had 5 yrs of pain, now the 3 largest airlines in Canada have "wage reopeners" coming next spring concurrent with a market shortage of supply (or at least a slight squeeze) due to pretty much every major being in hiring mode.

Jazz will be the first to raise pay to attract drivers as they're the current low man.  WJ will follow suit as they play catch-up with longer upgrade times and their position as the only game in town for the last 5 yrs, as well with a flat share price and lower profit sharing since the last agreement.  AC will never have a supply shortage, so they'll probably be the only ones that don't need to adjust wages, but ACPA will probably negotiate a modest increase along with the rest of the unions.

If ACE sees a new CEO in the new year, these wage "reopeners" would be a perfect opportunity to improve relations in the form of modest acknowledgement of the pain the employee groups have endured during the CCAA.  The shareholders got theirs approved yesterday...

Given where employee compensation is headed south of the border, you can expect that the AC proposal will be 'zero'.

Once all is said and done, it will be Teplitsky that determines whether anybody at ACE is deserving of a raise in pay. Binding arbitration - No Strike/No Lockout (sorry Pammy).

[better4me]

If pilots do better than 75% of Canadians, why is that bad?

It's only bad if pilots start complaining too loud about how they are such hard done by the fiscal restraint activities of the respective employer.

Ground crew taking a 10% wage cut is a bigger deal than pilots taking 10% wage cut, even although the pilots have a much larger dollar loss.

The average pilot would have to see wage and benefit reductions in the magnitude of %75 before comming close to the proverity line. Most people on this board freak out at 10% cut and begin to wonder how they will be able to put food on the table while at the same time taking delivery of a brand new Porsche. Remarks like: "No more conessionary negotiations..." "we gave back too much all ready", "How can we keep on making a living"..... give the impressions of THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

[Guest rattler]

Ten most overpaid jobs in the U.S.

Commentary: If only such largesse flowed to all of us

By Chris Pummer, CBS.MarketWatch.com

Last Update: 8:19 PM ET Nov. 6, 2003

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Almost no one in America would admit to being overpaid, but many of us take home bloated paychecks far beyond what we deserve.

"Fair compensation" is a relative term, yet HR consultants and executive headhunters agree some jobs command excessive pay that can't be explained by labor supply-and-demand imbalances.

And while it's easy to argue chief executives, lawyers and movie stars are overpaid, reality is not that cut and dried.

Corporate attorneys earn $500-plus an hour and plaintiffs lawyers pocket a third of big personal-injury settlements, but local prosecutors and public defenders get paid little in comparison. Specialty surgeons may earn $1 million or more, while some family-practice doctors are hard-pressed to pay off medical-school loans.

Hollywood stars making $20 million a movie or $10 million per TV-season qualify for many people's overpaid list. But for every one of those actors and actresses, there are a thousand waiting tables and taking bit movie parts or regional theater roles awaiting a big break that never comes.

"A lot of people are overpaid because there are certain things consumers just don't want screwed up," said Bill Coleman, senior vice president of compensation for Salary.com. "You wouldn't want to board a plane flown by a second-rate pilot or hire a cheap wedding photographer to record an event you hope happens once in your lifetime.

"With pro athletes, one owner is willing to pay big money for a star player and then all the other players want to keep up with the Joneses," Coleman said. "The art with CEO pay is making sure your CEO is above the median -- and you see where that goes."

What follows is a list of the 10 most overpaid jobs in the U.S., in reverse order, drafted with input from compensation experts:

10) Wedding photographers

Photographers earn a national average of $1,900 for a wedding, though many charge $2,500 to $5,000 for a one-day shoot, client meeting and processing time that runs up to 20 hours or more, and the cost of materials.

The overpaid ones are the many who admit they only do weddings for the income, while quietly complaining about the hassle of dealing with hysterical brides and drunken reception guests. They mope through the job with the attitude: "I'm just doing this for the money until Time or National Geographic calls."

Much of their work is mediocre as result. Have often have you really been wowed flipping the pages of a wedding album handed you by recent newlyweds? Photographers who long for the day they can say "I don't do weddings" should leave the work to the dedicated ones who do.

9) Major airline pilots

While American and United pilots recently took pay cuts, senior captains earn as much as $250,000 a year at Delta, and their counterparts at other major airlines still earn about $150,000 to $215,000 - several times pilot pay at regional carriers - for a job that technology has made almost fully automated.

By comparison, senior pilots make up to 40 percent less at low-fare carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest, though some enjoy favorable perks like stock options. That helps explain why their employers are profitable while several of the majors are still teetering on the brink of bankruptcy.

The pilot's unions are the most powerful in the industry. They demand premium pay as if still in the glory days of long-gone Pan Am and TWA, rather than the cutthroat, deregulated market of under-$200 coast-to-coast roundtrips. In what amounts to a per-passenger commission, the larger the plane, the more they earn - even though it takes little more skill to pilot a jumbo jet. It's as much the airplane mechanics who hold our fate in their hands.

8) West Coast longshoremen

In early 2002, West Coast ports shut down as the longshoremen's union fought to preserve generous health-care benefits that would make most Americans drool. The union didn't demand much in wage hikes for good reason: Its members already were making a boatload of money.

Next year, West Coast dockworkers will earn an average of $112,000 for handling cargo, according to the Pacific Maritime Association, their employer. Office clerks who log shipping records into computers will earn $136,000. And unionized foremen who oversee the rank-and-file will pull down an average $177,000.

Unlike their East Coast union brethren who compete with non-union ports in the South and Gulf of Mexico, the West Coast stevedores have an ironfisted lock on Pacific ports. Given their rare monopoly, they can disrupt U.S. commerce -- as they did during the FDR years -- and command exorbitant wages, even though their work is more automated and less hazardous than in the days of "On the Waterfront."

7) Airport skycaps

Many of the uniformed baggage handlers who check in luggage at curbside pull in $70,000 to $100,000 a year -- most of it in cash.

On top of their salaries, peak earners can take in $300 or more a day in tips. Sound implausible? That amounts to a $2 tip from 18 travelers an hour on average. Many tip more than that.

While most skycaps are cordial, a good many treat customers with blank indifference, knowing harried travelers don't want to brave counter check-ins, especially in the post 9/11 age.

6) Real estate agents selling high-end homes

Anyone who puts in a little effort can pass the test to get a real estate agent's license, which makes the vast sums that luxury-home agents earn stupefying.

While most agents hustle tail to earn $60,000 a year, those in affluent areas can pull down $200,000-plus for half the effort, courtesy of the fatter commissions on pricier listings.

Luxury home agents live off the economy's fat, yet many put on airs as if they're members of the class whose homes they're selling, and eye underdressed open-house visitors as if they're casing the joint.

5) Motivational speakers and ex-politicians on the lecture circuit

Whether it's for knighted ex-Mayor Rudy Guiliani or Tom "In Search of Excellence" Peters, corporate trade groups pay astronomical sums to celebrity-types and political has-beens to address their convention audiences.

Former President Reagan raised the bar back in 1989 when he took $2 million from Japanese business groups for making two speeches. Bill Clinton earned $9.5 million on 60 speeches last year, though most of those earnings went to charity and to fund his presidential library.

The national convention circuit's shame is that it blows trade-group members' money on orators whose speeches often have been warmed over a dozen times.

4) Orthodontists

For a 35-hour workweek, orthodontists earn a median $350,000 a year, according to the Journal of Clinical Orthodontics. General dentists, meanwhile, earn about half as much working 39 hours a week on average, in a much dirtier job.

The difference in their training isn't like that of a heart surgeon vs. a family-practice doctor. It's a mere two years, and a vastly rewarding investment if you're among the chosen: U.S. dental schools have long been criticized for keeping orthodontists in artificially low supply to keep their income up.

This isn't brain surgery: Orthodontists simply manipulate teeth in a growing child's mouth -- and often leave adjustment work to assistants whose handiwork they merely sign off on. What makes their windfall egregious is that they stick parents with most of the inflated bill, since orthodontia insurance benefits cover nowhere near as large a percentage as for general dentistry.

3) CEOs of poorly performing companies

Most U.S. chief executives are vastly overpaid, but if their company is rewarding shareholders and employees, producing quality products of good value and being a responsible corporate citizen, it's hard to take issue with their compensation.

CEOs at chronically unprofitable companies and those forever lagging industry peers stand as the most grossly overpaid. Most know they should resign -- in shareholders' and employees' interest -- but they survive because corporate boards that oversee them remain stacked with friends and family members.

The ultimate excess comes after they're finally forced out, usually by insiders tired of seeing their own stock holdings plummet. These long-time losers draw multimillion-dollar severance packages as a reward for their failed stewardship.

2) Washed-up pro athletes in long-term contracts

Pro athletes at the top of their game deserve what they earn for being the best in their business. It's those who sign whopping, long-term contracts after a few strong years, and then find their talents vanish, who reap unconscionable sums of money.

NBA player Shawn Kemp, for instance, earned $10 million in a year he averaged a pathetic 6.1 points and 3.8 rebounds a game. Atlanta Braves pitcher Mike Hampton earned $9.5 million -- in the second year of an eight-year, $121 million contract -- while compiling a 7-15 won-loss record for the Colorado Rockies with a pitiful earned-run average of 6.15.

Thank the players' unions for refusing to negotiate contracts based on performance -- and driving up the cost of tickets to levels unaffordable for a family of four, especially for football and basketball. They point to owners as the culprits, yet golf star Tiger Woods and tennis champ Serena Williams earn their keep based on their performance in each tournament.

1) Mutual-fund managers

Everyone on Wall Street makes far too much for the backbreaking work of moving money around, but mutual fund managers are emerging as among the most reprehensible. This isn't kicking 'em when they're down, given the growing fund-industry scandal. They've been long overpaid. Stock-fund managers can easily earn $500,000 to $1 million a year including bonuses -- even though only 3 in 10 beat the market in the last 10 years.

Now we discover an untold number enriched themselves and favored clients with illegally timed trades of fund shares. That's a worse betrayal of trust than the corporate scandals of recent years, since they're supposed to be on the little person's side.

Put aside what fund managers earn and consider their bosses. Putnam's ex-CEO Lawrence J. Lasser's income rivals the bloated pay package that sparked New York Stock Exchange President Dick Grasso's ouster. Lasser's take: An estimated total of $163 million over the last five years.

If only we were all so fortunate.

Chris Pummer is personal finance editor for CBS

[planett]

better4me, are you referring to Air Canada pilots or pilots in general?

How much should an Air Canda pilot make?

How much should an air ambulance pilot make?

[Vsplat]

better4me, I suggest that, before joining the ranks of those who throw numbers around, you pause and consider what you're talking about.

For example, when Air Canada instituted the rollback on CRJ FO pay, it was in the order of 25%. Those affected closed to within $200 a month of UI.

Under the current pay scheme, the average wage of anyone hired since 1999 is in the $65K range. Most well below that, a few lucky ones bringing up the average. 75% less than that would be?

Back to the RJ - that pay is earned with 18 flying days, plus unpaid recurrent training. Not unusual to work a 21 day month, including training. Of course, if it's a medical month, add another gratis trip to work.

Compare this to a Transport Canada inspector on the common compressed work week, 18 day month, average salary without overtime but including scheduled allowances in the $85K to $100K range. Overtime can add 50% to those numbers. Better time off, benefits, no one raiding your pension.

Not to advertise for TC, but to suggest that pilots are all so grossly overpaid that they could absorb the cuts you cite is patently false.

Porsche? Well I guess that about sums up the perception problem. I don't own one, won't be able to afford one before I retire. I have 25 years in. I'm still one of the rare ones whose marriage hasn't yet been killed by the life.

But thanks for sharing your expertise on my profession. Next time, use facts.

Vs

[better4me]

better4me, are you referring to Air Canada pilots or pilots in general?

How much should an Air Canda pilot make?

How much should an air ambulance pilot make?

1) Primarily Air Canada pilots (excluding Jazz) plus Westjet pilots (who I might add generally don't share attitudes with the AC pilots). Westjet pilots have lost 10-15% of the annual pay by not receiving profit sharing bonuses this year, but they don't seem to be b!tching like the AC pilots who lost about the same amount percentage wise.

2) Not for me to decide how much a pilot should make. Pilot's have to remember that wages go up and wages go down and thats the new reality. But more on that later.

3) In a perfect world, Air Ambulance pilots and Jazz crews should make the highest pay, IMHO. I would like to see pay based on number to take-offs and landings as these are the times when pilots are required the most. Pilots reading National Geographic on while flying over Greenland have not used their full skill set in over 5 hours (W Canada origin) and won't need to think until England..... unless something goes wrong and they wind up on a detour to Sondrestrom.

[better4me]

Vsplat, you primarily talk about the CRJ pilot group..... theses individuals are at the low end of the pilot pay scale for AC.

For average wages at ACE, lets talk about the pay scale for a 319/320 Captain. What is their pay like after the CCAA haircut.

The fat cats, IMO, are the widebody FO and Captains (exclude the dozers, cuz they are pulled from the 320 FO ranks).

Lets bring up another story. In 1999 I was told that there were about 1150 people at AC making more than 100,000 per year. The pilot group accounted for 1050 of those positions. What would be the result today.... how many people in ACE are making over 100,000 and how many are pilots????

The low income cut off (LICO) threshold for 2004 is $19k. Now lets assume that in family situations that the spouse is able to work and can cover the LICO difference between single and family status. In real terms this means that the LICO for a family of four is $34.5k, I assume that the spouse is good for at least the difference or $15.5k. By my calculations a pilot making $76k per annum would have to take a 75% pay cut to reach the poverty level. So therefore:

So I ask you, where on the seniority list does a pilot make $76K??? CRJ Captain or Airbus narrowbody FO? I am also will to be that the clear majority of AC pilots make above $76k.

[planett]

better4me, I understand that an ideal system would pay based on number of take offs and landings. Does that mean that an air ambulance pilot who doesn't get called, doesn't get paid?

I also understand that wages go up and down. Does that mean 'To hell with whether you can live off them?' What if supply and demand results in negative pay. Would that be acceptable. Some air ambulance pilots I know are at the poverty line.

[better4me]

I also understand that wages go up and down. Does that mean 'To hell with whether you can live off them?' What if supply and demand results in negative pay. Would that be acceptable. Some air ambulance pilots I know are at the poverty line.

Wages go up and down could be something like Westjet...

1) Base Pay applicabel to all years,

2) Profit Sharing that can comprise up to 10-15% of base pay.

3) Defined contribution pension plan that lets the employee take ownership of their pension and be able to vest sooner (2-3 years) rather than later (retirement).

The thing is, Westjet people took a 13% wage reduction when the profit sharing checks subsided. This wage reduction was automatic and not subject to vote by the any union group. ACPA needs to get a onto this type of feeling rather than relying upon fixed salary for the entire pay. The unions people win in the good years and the company can more efficiently handle the soft years.

Supply and demand will not result ing negative wages. As the wages go down the demand dries up as people switch careers (especially at the low end).

[planett]

better4me- Base pay, profit sharing, and pensions are all great ideas, too bad most pilots in Canada don't enjoy these privileges. The amount some pilots move around for employers or to improve income prevents the spouse from ever attaining a good enough job to support the pilot.

If you think supply and demand will not result in negative wages, just check out the entry level job prospects on the west coast for pilots. (read: pay for training and work for free till you are a captain.)

See where I'm coming from?

[Rookie]

Some air ambulance pilots I know are at the poverty line.

It's not all that bad. I am an air ambulance captain in MB and I will take exactly a 50% pay cut if I ever go to AC.

But I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Short term pain for long term gain.

I can make 6-figures here if I want to fly the line on my days off, but I don't. AC is still the place in Canada where you will be making the most money when you retire.

[Guest prob30]

better4me asks why WJ pilots aren't 'bitching' about profit share and stock options reducing their pay 15%. I suggest it pretty naive to think that while they aren't on here saying anything, anyone in any position (in any company) would not sit idly by and watch that happen. Their pay is up for renegotiation next year.

[Leading Edge]

Better4me,

If you are earning $25K a year and still require support from your Parents, then I suggest that you consider a different career path. If you are a starving Pilot, who like the rest of us, is paying his/her dues, then you have my respect, but you chose this path. Actually you are where you are because of choice.

I get sick of this socialist dribble about people who earn more should take larger cuts in salary. The cuts should be the same percentage across the board. If it affects you more, well I guess it comes down to life's decisions doesn't it.

One day, hopefully, you will be successful and making the big $$$ When you get there, you'll find out that everyone has their hand in your wallet to the tune of almost 50% - an absurd amount.

FYI, I have been where you are today, and I had no Parents to subsidize me along the way. Suck it up.

[jump seat]

. . . . but because these guys genuinely try and make this company succeed outside of the cockpit. I doubt that any Air Canada pilot puts even half the amount of energy into doing the same thing Westjet pilots do outside of their "job description".

WOW

Nothing like grouping all the pilots together!

[CanadaEH]

Nothing like grouping all the pilots together!

You have an oppurtunity to prove me wrong, take it or leave it.