To the man from the other forum....

[Mitch Cronin]

Ok... Having ripped at each other a bit in that other forum where it seems ripping at folks is the name of the game sometimes, how 'bout we try again here in a more civilized manner?

I understand and agree with your thoughts about the folly of always rigidly sticking to procedure when clearly there are times when adapting to current circumstances would require some deviation from normal procedure, ...or even on the spot invention of new procedure... so to speak...

...but do you understand why I couldn't let that comment about common sense go unchallenged?

Some things - and in my mind that would certainly include anything the books state is a no-go item - must simply remain black and white.... As soon as you start accepting the idea of rationalizing a way to occasionally ignore those published standards, you've created grey where there was none... When that becomes grey, you've introduced the possibility for other grey where there most certainly ought not to be any... ("well ya, but we do it there, what's the difference?") and that's what I meant by suggesting that was accepting "the normalization of deviance".

Are ya with me?

[Check Pilot]

Mitch,

I just can’t hold back on this subject any longer.

The person from the “other forum” is demonstrating the classic psychology that every pilot has to develop but has yet to get under control. Pilots must, and I emphasize, must, be mentally oriented in a manner that gets the job done. It’s uppermost in a pilot’s mind as soon as the aircraft appears in sight. It’s ingrained, trained, emphasized and drilled into every aspect of a pilot’s professional (or non-professional) career right from day one. Right from the start, training emphasizes the fact that the job of FLYING must result in success. To fail at flying can and frequently does result in the body assuming room temperature long before the sands of natural lifetime run out. Unfortunately, there is no other way it can be.

Most unfortunately however, the pilot’s mind is geared so intently on achieving success that the normalization you mention gets in the way of reasoned judgment.

It really comes down to a subtle form of get-home-itis.

That kind of attitude will not change until the pilot has a significant emotional event of some kind. Either a change of employer or a couple of good scares usually achieves this kind of change in attitude. The cowboy mentality of ignoring no go non-MEL items changes after time but in my experience it stays the same without some form of outside influence. Call it divine intervention if you want.

I’ve met people that never did get out of the original “let’s get it done and damn the torpedoes” attitude. If they owned an air operation, they usually went out of business or the insurance companies eventually made them stop the old ways by charging outrageous premiums. If it was an individual pilot, he frequently wound up dead. To me, it’s always sad to see that going on. Those folks eventually wound up hurting a lot of folks because of an inability to see a necessity to change.

The times are changing for the better these days though. A new way of thinking is in the wind and it is going to have to happen for everyone in aviation. It’s long overdue for the non-majors in my opinion. The majors have been doing it for years and so have a whole bunch of other operators that I rarely hear from or about. They recognized long ago that the regulations and standards are merely minimums that almost become secondary to safe, effective, expeditious and courteous service to the public.

The pilots that are employed by those kinds of companies rarely post on the “other forum” because they don’t have to. They already know that safe operations are number one and no one questions the actions of the flight crew when a trip doesn’t go as planned because the pilot or crew was not comfortable with the operation. Don’t get me wrong here however, they’re not pussies when it comes to aircraft operations. Those kinds of folks are true professionals and will look at the whole big picture when deciding what to do. They represent what I deem to be a “mature” team. There are lots of those kinds of operators around. You just never hear them mentioned around forums because of the low-key way of going about their business. The best part is that they make money while doing it.

Transport Canada has finally recognized that unless a “cultural” change in aviation occurs where the primary focus is safety and not on the bottom line, the operator is likely not going to survive. The SMS (Safety Management Systems) requirements being imposed (unfortunately it had to be done by legislation) will leave some of the “heritage” operators floundering and unable to change, along with the staff and especially the flight crews now out of a place of employment.

It’s a place that the attitude you find repugnant will not survive for much longer.

So Mitch, I am firmly on your side with your thoughts about what you mentioned on “the other forum”. Hang in there. You truly understand the nature of aviation from point of view of where it should rightly be. The issue of common sense is different from one person to another. Don’t let that other argument discourage you. You are right on the mark.

[handyman]

Red team forum was it?

[Don Hudson]

cpdude;

That remark was uncalled for.

Check Pilot, Mitch,

Agree with your posts.

Check Pilot, the "scare" you talk about is very real and sadly has to happen sometimes before a pilot wakes up. Happily most of the time its just a scare.

On a positive note, flight data analysis programs can bring a strong sense of reality for crews and help pilots learn where and why things may not have gone as they wanted. Such programs are invaluable in enhancing flight safety because the data can be reviewed with an association pilot (NOT Flight Ops or any management pilot! ) in much the same way a simulator exercise can be reviewed and discussed. Learning takes place and everyone moves on, a little wiser and hopefully a little safer. Its an excellent tool and is increasingly supported by the major carriers in North America and especially Europe, (I know you know this, but I'm writing for those who may not). In fact, these days, if one isn't doing flight data analysis, one's company is likely at risk in terms of liability alone. The side-benefits for aircraft performance and system monitoring are huge...this aspect and the obvious and powerful safety aspects are things that investors need to know about. It's well known now that FOQA Programs can save them money and a whole lot more in the long run.

Don

[Moon The Loon]

Ok... Having ripped at each other a bit in that other forum where it seems ripping at folks is the name of the game sometimes...

Mitch - can you provide a link to your discussion?

On the surface though, your comments and CP/Don's comments are all spot on. Regarding the "scare": so true...so very, sadly true.

[handyman]

cpdude;

That remark was uncalled for.

Don,

I don't know what you think I meant but I was only curious and meant the AC private forum. Was I wrong?

Sorry if calling AC the red team is insulting!

[Mitch Cronin]

Thanks for that Check Pilot. It's interesting to hear that perspective....

There's an awful lot of that very same, must-go psycholgy floating around in the offices, not very far from every AME's pen... so when those same offices are responsible for controlling the misery or delight in the working day, general job satisfaction, and financial health of those same AME's, ...those pens can sometimes be seen to dance.

Perhaps unfortunately, that may be the best argument for a strong union environment where aircraft maintenance is performed.

There were AME's reading that thread who've made that dance routine. ...and they have no idea.

Sure Moon, but be warned, there is foul language therein:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.p...91340306299016f

[Don Hudson]

cpdude;

No big deal,... but it looked to me as though the remarks about "press on-itis" were being attributed to "the red team". In a public forum where anyone can read this stuff, characterizing any specific groups of employees, especially with "third-forum" remarks that no one had info on, leaves wrong impressions and no defence for that group. The term "red team" isn't insulting at all but attribution of bad airmanship to any group of pilots is...that's how it looked and sounded to me.

[Moon The Loon]

Sure Moon, but be warned, there is foul language therein

[handyman]

cpdude;

No big deal,... but it looked to me as though the remarks about "press on-itis" were being attributed to "the red team". In a public forum where anyone can read this stuff, characterizing any specific groups of employees, especially with "third-forum" remarks that no one had info on, leaves wrong impressions and no defence for that group. The term "red team" isn't insulting at all but attribution of bad airmanship to any group of pilots is...that's how it looked and sounded to me.

again...I have no idea what remarks or forum your talking about. Can you enlighten me?

[handyman]

never mind, I found it and understand how you misunderstood me. My apologies.

[AME]

I guess I've been extremely fortunate in my career, At ZX and now NCA, the mandate was/is "If it's broke, park it and fix it"

The problem I'm facing is convincing the time builders of that

[Seeker]

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.p...91340306299016f

Mitch:

I just went over and read the thread on avcanada. Yikes! All I can say is that you're a better man than I am to put up with that arrogance. Makes this place look downright civilized. BTW, you're right, he's wrong.

seeker

[handyman]

Wow...what a crazy forum/thread. I guess I feel rather lucky to be part of this one instead.

The general tone and differences in attitude I think are consistent with the scope of operation. Small charter/bush type flying is a more "make it work" type operation and I'm sure we all agree that it would be catastrophic in our type of operation. I guess the difficult part is for those (and most if not all of us have been there), is to transition to our more regulated type operation.

To quote the man from the other forum “I want someone who does it by the book, but still has the ability to THINK for themselves, working on my plane."

Not me sunshine! Do it by the book and if you have a problem with the book report it through the proper channels.

[Don Hudson]

cpdude;

No big deal...cheers, tx.

[Check Pilot]

cpdude

I've found that with the small charter/bush operators that doing it by the book sometimes gets pushed under the rug due to the pressing need to please the customers. They frequently don't have access to a good banker and the competition is red hot to cut costs. Lots of them go under even when scrimping on maintenence.

The pilots put up with it because a lot of them are fuselage huggers and percieve a need to get as much time as possible in the good ol' logbook so the resume looks good to the heavy iron operators.

Those pilot's still haven't gotten to the more mature stage where they will no longer put up with being pushed around by the owner or chief pilot or ops manager.

Usually by the time they are mature enough to no longer put up with that kind of horse$hit they do have enough time and experience to get on to larger aircraft so the cycle never ends. The new guy comes in with low time and away it goes again.

This isn't true of every small operator. I know quite a few that are really good at business first and therefore run very good maintenace and operations departments. The pilot's tend to stick around and the costs to the operator are more than made up in reduced training costs, since that kind of operator doesn't have to be on a never ending initial training cycle for new pilots.

[Moon The Loon]

The pilots put up with it because a lot of them are fuselage huggers and percieve a need to get as much time as possible in the good ol' logbook so the resume looks good to the heavy iron operators.

Don't know that that is entirely true. My first job outside instructing was on a Seneca I out of Fort Nelson, BC. At the end of the third week after running loads of steel pipe (8' lengths), fertilizer/diesel mix AND caps, and pax who wouldn't (some couldn't) use their seat belts, I started balking. Two days later I was fired.

Perhaps the coercion has changed. This was 25 years ago. The onus in those days wasn't so much building time as it was keeping your job. After I was let go, a buddy flying for the same operator crashed and burned the C206. He lived, his passenger was badly burned and they survived the night in the Yukon bush. He hasn't flown since.

Many lessons were learned in that 3 week period. Since then, I've lost over a dozen mates, most in preventable accidents. Nowadays, I understand fewer people are learning to fly yet all types of flying seem to be on the increase. As fewer and fewer gain experience and have their eyes opened wide as I had, what does that bode for commercial aviation in the future? I don't know the answer, but the question nags at me...

[Rookie]

Well I sort of work for a bush operator/regional airline, depending on how you class us.

There is no pressure on us to fly broken planes.

The other day in Cross Lake, 327sm north of YWG, as I was starting the #2 engine, the rpm gauge wasn't indicating. I elected to continue the start rather than abort it after light off had occurred. I trouble shot it for a while and advised my FO that we were done and to deplane the passengers. We called maintenance and they started to dispatch a rescue flight. About 5 minutes later on a hunch, I went out, ran the starter test, and sure enough, the RPM gauge was working now. I went back inside, called maintenance again, and told them it seemed to be working. Now many companies would have said, "okay, bring 'er home". Mine said "sit. It probably will fail on the way back". So we sat. And an airplane was sent 327 miles non rev to fix a gauge that had a small gremlin. And not even boo was said to me about it!

The best part? I got paid my full day's mileage to only do half the days work!

[Check Pilot]

Hey there Moon - howdy from Alberta now,

Things are going to be forced on those kinds of operators whether they like it or not.

To quote my previous stuff:

"The times are changing for the better these days though. A new way of thinking is in the wind and it is going to have to happen for everyone in aviation. It’s long overdue for the non-majors in my opinion. The majors have been doing it for years and so have a whole bunch of other operators that I rarely hear from or about. They recognized long ago that the regulations and standards are merely minimums that almost become secondary to safe, effective, expeditious and courteous service to the public."

As I said earlier there is a better outlook towards safety coming up. I just wish Transport Canada didn't have to force it on the unwilling. I, in my small space in the Canadian aviation universe, am going to have to deal - one way or another, with operators that just won't or are unwilling to "get it". It could/should have been "woven into the culture" all along. That, however is thinking in a mystical and magic way. Reality is different than that of course. I could retire soon but I'm now thinking that my "hobby" with TC is going to go on for a lot longer. I can't wait to see the outcome of this unprecedented regulatory initiative.

I see the better operators - it's already there and has been for a long time.

Cheers,

DW

[Just Curious 2]

Morning Mitch,

While there are a few things guaranteed to set off a flame war here at AEF, the 'other forum' has a much wider range of experience, age, and brain cells (for lack of a better phrase).

While I enjoy each for different reasons, I notice that posters from one forum seem to get radically different reactions (to fairly innocent posts) when posting on the other.

It seems clear to me that you are not likely to receive a Christmas card from Haligoner. If you do, you might want to check it for wires and batteries before opening I suspect that he is about 22, and just laid off from the subject company. This could of course explain the less restrained response.

Since I've never flown from the left coast, I have no idea as to the veracity of claims as to the airworthiness of their fleet. As always the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Of course, I see he's interested in returning to the other coast, to work for Canjet. Could make for an interesting interview question. "Let's suppose you have an non- MEL defect, and the base engineer, let's call him Mitch, refuses to release the aircraft. What would be your actions?..."

You just go ahead and keep posting. Truth is where you find it, and the kids in the crowd need to hear it too, even if it does hurt their feelings.

Cheers,

JC

[handyman]

the 'other forum' has a much wider range of experience, age, and brain cells (for lack of a better phrase).

An exploration of the bottom of the barrel I suspect!