A promise to the Liberals:

[Mitch Cronin]

A big concession? I dunno... it doesn't cost anyone of us 600 million... (if that's true, and I don't know, 'cause my union won't sit and talk with them)... I'm outa here at 55 no matter what. I made that decision when someone here posted a link to a study that showed life expectancy in this industry decreases by two years for every year worked after 55... but at the rate I'm going, I don't expect to live that long anyway.

[Guest CB allquads]

Conehead - TTI also wanted to review the contracts that were signed last summer to ensure the promised savings have been achieved. The bottom line is that it is soley the company's responsibility to implement the contracts. Nobody elses.

Farley on the 29th???Bring back Winkler.

[Guest M. McRae]

The only study that I have seen is from 25years ago by Boeing. Here is a goto to a site that has that table along with some other information.

http://home.att.net/~coachthee/Archives/longevityvsretirementage.html

[Guest M. McRae]

And one other site that has a more recent study along with some conclusions.

http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/coe/gutub/English_Misc/Retire1.htm

[Guest CB allquads]

Greg I like your proposal. Period. The only question is how do we get there. Is it the Unions responsibility to offer this??? I think the company should come clean,admit their mistake, invite the Unions to the table without TTI, and make a concrete proposal as you have outlined.

[Guest lupin]

The bumping of the retirement age from 55 to 60 has a huge impact on the lives of the present AC workers.

Here's a perspective I discussed with some peers on another forum;

The pension shortfall is 1.2 billion dollars.If they increase the pension age to 60 the shortfall decreases to 600 million.

Increasing pensionable age actually makes the current employees subsidize the pensions of current retirees without the present employee group being able to enjoy the same benefits.

I have some reservation about paying into a pension fund for benefits I won't be allowed to use.The union system is supposed to be about equality,well for once that we can use that line for our advantage,lets take advantage of it.No cuts is always the prefered option.... But to allow the current retirees to enjoy gold plated pensions while it is being subsidised by us who stands to get a lesser pension,is out of the question!

[gonzo]

Not sure who to ask on this one but when I read one of the proposals it had info on the "deemed trust/non deemed trust scenario". At the time it seemed like a deal breaker to me but I can't remember why. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Frosty]

I think that you have hit the nail right on the head!

The problem though is we are into a huge game of chicken. One would have to think that RM and CR would be jumping at getting the unions back to the table especially with the bonus on the line.

But we are seeing a typical pattern develop here, the bus is at the crossroads and there is no driver behind the wheel.

[cp fa]

The actuarial tables in both those articles are based on data that was collected from one company at least 25 years ago. If I was deliberating whether or not it was worth it to let my company liquidate in order to protect my right to retire 5 years early without penalty, I would want to be able to base my decision on data a little more current and relevant than that.

[Stickle]

TTI also wanted to review the contracts that were signed last summer to ensure the promised savings have been achieved

This is the part that scares the hell out of me. I'm afraid that the company may have put a monetary value against some of the productivity and work rule changes that don't make sense.

[conehead]

I'd go for that. Seems to me he was our friend when it came to pension issues.

[Guest GDR]

>>>Why is it that the Iraq war, which was stated as the chief reson for CCAA, had such catastrophic impact on a Canadian airline while other airlines in the Middle-East are flourishing and expanding.<<<

Middle Eastern airlines were, hardly affected by SARS, have cheap fuel compared to us, don’t have to deal with Westjet, weren’t dealing with an acrimonious merger forced on them by gov’t. How about comparing AC with the majors in the US.

>>>What major changes in top executives and their policies have taken place since CCAA to change the direction of the company?<<<

Milton prior to CCAA introduced a low cost option in the airline while other North American carriers had only started to think about it, prior to CCAA. Since being in CCAA they have almost revamped the whole fleet by ordering new state of the art aircraft to give us a much more efficient fleet. They have adjusted the route structure, renegotiated union contracts, renegotiated aircraft leases, and converted debt to equity.

>>>Why is it that while the hard-working employees are expected to sell their pensions short and have to get second jobs to put their kids through college, Mr. Milton and team are expected to pocket a handsome 20 million dollars, for forcing the same idea on the employees. What 'one word' would you choose to describe this process if it should come to pass? <<<

Air Canada employees are not being asked to sell their pension short. They are being offered the choice between what we have now and a DC plan IF THEY CHOOSE IT. Milton gets $20 million only if the company prospers which would mean that everyone prospers. That $20 million is a bonus paid by Victor Li out of his own pocket. Why do we care? It doesn’t affect us one iota.

>>>While Some say live to fight another day, is there going to be another day for sure when these people can't even keep their promise for a few days? Does anyone know for sure that they won't come back asking for more concessions?<<<

No we don’t know that they won’t come back looking for more concessions. Maybe we should just shut the company down now because they might. However, don’t forget that once we get out from under the rules of the CCAA the whole system of negotiations reverts back to something a whole lot more normal.

>>>Everyone wants to save their company, but before you know it, the company won't even resemble what it once was and not only does it go under at the end, but the standard has been lowered so much that this generation of staff won't see the same salaries and conditions again. I'm sure the unions will change their tune once they have a reliable person that keeps his word on the other side. <<<

The industry has changed. The low cost carriers have changed it. It is called business. If someone can come along with a competitive product and sell it for less than you, it requires you to adjust. This adjustment is painful, but it is a fact of life. Air Canada is in legal bankruptcy protection under the rules of the Canadian Creditors Arrangement Act. Everything is changed. To a large degree judges are deciding our future. Judge Farley could at the end of the month say this isn’t working and shut it down. No jobs and questionable pensions. Buzz Hargrove will still have is nice secure job with the CAW and of course it won’t be his fault at all.

Greg Robinson

[Guest GDR]

It won't be proposed because Buzz Hargrove and others will not come to the table and discuss it. They are refusing to negotiate it and have told Li that we don't need him and that he should take a hike. Not particularly useful dialogue.

Greg

[Guest givemeabreak]

Longtimer, again you prove yourself to be an absolute idiot!

The beef industry was affected by outside sources that have been blown out of proportion.

The airline industry (Air Canada) was affected by whining unions, poor work ethic, bad management, and continues to be that way.

Why would the gov't bail something out that was run into the ground by a bunch of spoiled little brats that did more whining than working?

[Innuendo]

Frosty, as CpFa said there was a similar rumour about Pilots life expectancy which is just plain BS.

Rather than base your planning on some "tables" why not ask your pension rep to look into the experience that your plan has with retiree payouts. They should be able to see from those figures if the 28 months has any credibility. I guess that if the average draw from the pension fund for the member was only 28 months then the fund should be rolling in cash.

[Guest fly]

Granted you do have some good points as you're fair-minded, but some if not most say that CCAA would have been here with or without SARS/Irag. One had only look at the escalating debt to wonder when it would come.

The exact circumstances of CAIL purchase is not entirely known either. Some suggest it was RM's ambition that caused it, who really knows.

As for lack of vision I give you one example: the B737s. All that cost of painting and repainting so many airplanes, and now they're all being retired-clearly no long term vision IMHO. Not to mention the Tango brand, which continued to compete with the mother corp even after C3. How do these (especially competing with yourself) make business sense?

[Guest GDR]

Hi fly

The debt was being managed. The company was actually in better shape than UA and AMR until SARS hit. When we were an already precarious situation it just put us right over the edge. Outside of HKG, AC was the worst hit airline in the world according to the media at the time.

I'd also point out that the American carriers got a great deal more gov't assistance. Candian carriers got very little assistance and even had to give some of that back. In the meantime gov't kept adding on one tax and surcharge after another using the industry as a cash cow. While now this cow is almost toast.

As far as the 737 painting is concerned, it apparently isn't that expensive. It is done in house and some of it has to be done anyway.

I believe Tango was a success. It along helped Air Canada get into the public mindset that we could compete on the low cost side of the operation. It also gave the company valuable experience in gauging passenger reaction to things like little or no food.

Hope this all works out.

Greg

[DEFCON]

P. Martin owns CSL. When it came to beefing up scurity the airlines and their customers have been forced to pay the price. When it came to the ports the gov kicked a hundred or so million in for them. Now who's interest where represented in this Liberal deal?

[Guest fly]

I guess we'll never know for sure how well the debt was being managed, but 10% of Argentina's debt is a good chunk of cash. And to use your example, look at how well Cathay finished the year after being affected so badly by SARS, and no lay-offs either. Those guys really pulled it off, but AC was just poorly managed and run without a long term vision, everything seemed like a reaction to WJ, JG, or any other little player (no disrespect) that was around. Plus I don't have to tell you that management never really clicked with the employees.

As for the 20 million dollar, regardless of where it's coming from, it's given as a bonus for pulling the restructuring off, a part of which is to secure huge employee concessions. Somewhat poor taste, don't you think? Mr. Li may have much smoother communication with the employees if there were a shake-up in upper management.

Also, all the complaining folks do here is saying the wrong thing at the wrong place. I'm not much of a socialist comrade, but if people don't like their representatives, change them through the proper channels and get them to voice the majority's view, don't you think?

Having said all of that, what do you suppose should be next, go along with DC? Is the road going to be clear after that you think? And what if the answer is a more likely NO, start over again?

[Guest GDR]

I think that the unions should publicly agree to giving all current employees a choice and agree that new hires will receive a DC plan. If they want to mention the early retirement provisions for the unions that have it then so be it.

That would put the ball squarely in Mr. Li's court. After that the pressure would all be on him.

[Guest itismedoubled]

Why is that AC expects a bail out from the government???C3000 was allowed to go bankrupt.

Its bad enough other Canadian operators got to be charged more nav Canada fees because of AC, now my tax dollars should go towards putting me out of a job. If a company is in financial difficulty its because of lack of demand, or lack of management! The last time I looked the demand was there. I say let the old dog die, the poor mutt has been suffering long enough!

[Guest itismedoubled]

Why is that AC expects a bail out from the government???C3000 was allowed to go bankrupt.

Its bad enough other Canadian operators got to be charged more nav Canada fees because of AC, now my tax dollars should go towards putting me out of a job. If a company is in financial difficulty its because of lack of demand, or lack of management! The last time I looked the demand was there. I say let the old dog die, the poor mutt has been suffering long enough!