Attn: all Billionaires...

[Mitch Cronin]

"Bloomberg to spend millions of his money to help black, Latino males"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/04/new.york.minority.youth/

That's the ticket!

...btw, I could really use some coin, if anyone has any special chores they might need accomplished?

[Guest alkaid]

"Bloomberg to spend millions of his money to help black, Latino males"

http://www.cnn.com/2...minority.youth/

That's the ticket!

...btw, I could really use some coin, if anyone has any special chores they might need accomplished?

What really needs to be changed is the culture of these groups. Ever notice that the Jewish an Oriental communities don't have these problems. Both have been discrimminated against in the past in America yet they sail ahead.

Why? Culture.

When you have a group that has a high rate of glorifying gangsta rap, making it big by being a sports star, making every excuse about not getting ahead due to someone else's prejudice, poor parenting responsibilities, preference to dropping out of school for easy money, collecting welfare, etc, they will never come close to the groups that place a higher value on working your way up from the bottom, high education, choosing a high paying career that you have a realistic chance of achieving, earning salary increases incrementally etc.

No money from me. Not that I am a billionaire, yet

[Seeker]

Alkaid;

I don't think they're looking for your money. Bloomberg and Soros have highlighted a real problem in their society and are willing to use their own money to try to fix it. Will it be successful? Who knows? Hard to find fault with their effort though.

[Guest alkaid]

I'm sure that it will work at least as well as has all the money thrown at the natives. Money is not the problem.

[J.O.]

You can't change culture through isolation or constant floggings. It's been tried and never succeeds. You also can't change culture in a few years. It takes generations.

[Specs]

Cultural norms and standards play a huge role in future success. I've never understood why so many of the well to do never appreciate the advantages most of them had and most often take for granted. Cost me a friendship or two over the years arguing that point.

Bloomberg's initiative seems to recognize that need in some of the ethnic communities and is trying to penetrate those cultural walls. Well done!!

[Guest alkaid]

You also can't change culture in a few years. It takes generations.

So True J.O. Glad you understand like I do. The first step is the truth no matter how much some don't want to hear it.I have initiated that step.

RESPONSIBILITY is the next step.

[Mitch Cronin]

I have initiated that step.

How? Where? Got a link?

[J.O.]

So True J.O. Glad you understand like I do. The first step is the truth no matter how much some don't want to hear it.I have initiated that step.

RESPONSIBILITY is the next step.

You forgot one more important point. You also can't change culture through isolationism, which is largely what you profess as the answer to the problem. How does one choose a better path if they are not exposed to it in the first place? That's where your idea of culture change falls flat on its face.

[Guest alkaid]

How? Where? Got a link?

http://theairlinewebsite.com/index.php/topic/391636-attn-all-billionaires/page__p__1569826#entry1569826

[Guest alkaid]

You forgot one more important point. You also can't change culture through isolationism, which is largely what you profess as the answer to the problem. How does one choose a better path if they are not exposed to it in the first place? That's where your idea of culture change falls flat on its face.

i·so·la·tion·ism

  <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/I03/I0335500" target="_blank"><img src="http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0" alt="isolationism pronunciation" /></a> /ˌaɪsəˈleɪʃəˌnɪzəm, ˌɪsə-/ Show Spelled[ahy-suh-ley-shuh-niz-uhm, is-uh-] Show IPAnoun the policy or doctrine of isolating one's country from the affairs of other nations by declining to enter into alliances, foreign economic commitments, international agreements, etc., seeking to devote the entire efforts of one's country to its own advancement and remain at peace by avoiding foreign entanglements and responsibilities.

More likely that your argument makes no sense. Feel free to try again though.

Nothing but the truth.

[cp fa]

No alkaid, or woxof, or whatever - what you're spouting here is not the truth, but merely your opinion, which is uninformed, elitist, judgemental and totally lacking in human compassion. In general, I find the opinions you espouse on topics like this one to be bordering on racist - I doubt you'd have the guts to say stuff like this in person, or sign your real name to it.

The real truth is that people are not born criminals - but when they are born into a generational cycle of extreme poverty, to single mothers, many of them drug addicted, with little in the way of educational prospects, and being bumped from foster home to foster home, for many of them, the first feeling of real belonging they experience is when they are recruited into gangs.

I applaud Mayor Bloomberg for recognizing this, and for putting up his own money to try to break the cycle.

[chockalicious]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This

[Guest alkaid]

No alkaid, or woxof, or whatever - what you're spouting here is not the truth, but merely your opinion, which is uninformed, elitist, judgemental and totally lacking in human compassion. In general, I find the opinions you espouse on topics like this one to be bordering on racist - I doubt you'd have the guts to say stuff like this in person, or sign your real name to it.

Always predictable that the racism line will come up from the racism industry. I know, I am supposed to run and hide now because you have indirectly come close to calling me racist and the real facts never get discussed. Now you want my real name of course. Perhaps you could send it to my employer or something like that. I should be scared, i would think of the people who call me these names or insults instead of logical replies. Oh and of course, I have no compassion.

So Miss FA who is hiding behind a handle, here is an opinion that I very much agree with in a recently written article which I will post separately below. I post it as the writer can say it much better than I could... but it is the most important thing. THE TRUTH.

Who is Woxof anyways?

[Guest alkaid]

You can't deny that culture matters

Dan Gardner, Ottawa Citizen

Published: Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Imagine two people. One is sure in his bones that he can succeed, but only if he works as hard as he can, gets the best education, and constantly puts off small rewards today for greater rewards tomorrow. The other doesn't believe his actions will determine his fate, doesn't work as hard as he can, doesn't get an education and consistently chooses the rewards of today rather than waiting for tomorrow. Who is more likely to succeed?

Of course. Our values, beliefs, and attitudes make a big difference in whether we succeed or not. The point is obvious, even banal, when we're talking about individuals.

But values, beliefs, and attitudes aren't created by individuals, at least not individuals alone. They are shaped and shared within communities. We call these shared perceptions "culture."

Does culture make a difference in whether a community succeeds or not? The point would seem to be equally obvious. But don't you dare say it out loud.

"She told me, 'Those are the ideas that killed six million Jews,'" recalls Lawrence E. Harrison, director of the Cultural Change Institute at Tufts University. It was 1993 and Harrison was spending some time at Carleton University in Ottawa. He had explained his belief that culture matters to a very senior academic, who told Harrison, who is Jewish, that he was restoring the foundations of the Holocaust.

Fortunately, Harrison was not deterred. In the years since, he wrote or edited several books on the role of culture in development and his views have won over a growing list of academics and political leaders. Some may not accept Harrison's specific analyses, or they may think he gives too much weight to the role of culture, but the central idea -- culture matters -- is increasingly accepted by people who think seriously about these things.

But you still can't say so in public. As Maclean's magazine demonstrated recently.

In November, Maclean's published a feature story about the outsized and growing presence of Chinese and Chinese-Canadian students in Canadian universities. "Too Asian?" the headline read. Too incendiary. Maclean's was condemned by academics, editorialists, senators and interest groups. Students protested. City councils in Toronto, Vancouver, and Victoria formally demanded an apology.

As Harrison notes, neither the phenomenon of Chinese over-representation in university, nor the sensitivity that surrounds it, is unique to this country. In the United States, East-and South-Asian students combined make up as much as one-quarter of the student population at major universities even though they are about three per cent of the total population.

The story is the same everywhere. Name a country and chances are you will find a Chinese immigrant community which values education, demands hard work, sacrifices for tomorrow and succeeds.

We could look at that and see something very positive. And important. Surely there are lessons to be learned. Why would anyone not want to talk about this?

In part, the resistance stems from old history. A century ago, anti-immigrant feeling was inflamed by those who said hard-working Asians were a threat to "our" jobs. Maclean's played into this, unfortunately. The article -- thanks mainly to the headline, which was a quotation -- framed the story as white-students-feel-threatened rather than the success story it is. That was insensitive. And dumb.

But there's something more fundamental at work. To acknowledge that one group's culture is contributing to its extraordinary success invites an obvious question about groups plagued with social pathologies and failure: Is their culture responsible?

That's when red lights flash. In polite company, it is acceptable to praise cultures, as Michaelle Jean and the head of UNESCO did Tuesday in a typical op-ed. Haitian culture is "strong and dynamic," they wrote. It "is a treasure to be developed." But cultures must never be compared or criticized. No culture is better or worse. No culture needs to change. They are all strong and dynamic treasures.

But if cultural explanations are rejected from the start, how do we account for the success of Chinese immigrants around the world? How do we explain the dramatically different levels of development in Haiti and Dominican Republic, which share an island? How do we explain the even more dramatic disparity between Haiti and Barbados, which share a history of slavery and colonial oppression? Harrison and other scholars argue Haiti has been crippled, at least in part, by certain cultural values -- such as the fatalism promoted by voodoo -- that discourage initiative, rationality, trust, achievement, and education.

But just try saying that in public.

To be sure, the "culture matters" line can be put to wretched purposes. It's handy for those who would prefer to ignore non-cultural factors, such as economic exploitation.

As the name of his institute suggests, Harrison's view is quite different.

He opens his seminal book, The Central Liberal Truth, by quoting Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the legendary Democratic senator. "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society," Moynihan wrote. "The central liberal truth is that politics can change a culture and save it from itself."

Dan Gardner's column appears Wednesday and Friday in the Citizen and National Post. E-mail:

dgardner@ottawacitizen.com

[cp fa]

Now you want my real name of course

No, I don't want your real name. I said you didn't have the guts to use it.

I should be scared, i would think of the people who call me these names or insults instead of logical replies.

I did give a logical reply. Your mind is too closed to even notice.

So Miss FA who is hiding behind a handle

Not hiding behind a handle - I've used my real name here lots of times, and most people who post here know who I am.

Alkaid...who is Woxof anyways

You're not fooling anyone.

[Guest alkaid]

I notice that you have absolutely no response to the article which reflects my opinions. Just a mention about closed mind.

A major portion of this article, the response of many to shining the light on the truth reflects exactly what is happening on this thread. Read the article again and look at the responses to my statements.

Why am I not surprised by the lack of logical response to this article from CP FA. Because one is not available. OK, O.K. you say. There was a statement earlier of "The real truth is that people are not born criminals - but when they are born into a generational cycle of extreme poverty, to single mothers, many of them drug addicted, with little in the way of educational prospects, and being bumped from foster home to foster home, for many of them, the first feeling of real belonging they experience is when they are recruited into gangs."

I suggest that you look at what happened to the Jews in history and how about South Korea or Japan after their major wars and the poverty and destruction and ask yourself why they are so successful today. There would have been so many single mothers, little way in educational prospects, etc yet they build modern safe societies. Others don't. And they won't no matter how much you try to help.

Any comments on the article anyone?

[Mitch Cronin]

Alkaid, if you really think anyone here doesn't know you were woxof, you're dopier than I thought. That article is a load of trash the writer wrote to earn his supper for the day. He may have hit on a couple interesting points, but he forgets that his measure of "success" is not the same as everyone else's. Just as you forget that what you call "truth" is not what everyone else calls truth.

On a personal note, you are displaying your ugliest traits again. You're making yourself appear both arrogant and ignorant. Be careful.

[Guest alkaid]

Alkaid, if you really think anyone here doesn't know you were woxof, you're dopier than I thought.

That article is a load of trash the writer wrote to earn his supper for the day. He may have hit on a couple interesting points, but he forgets that his measure of "success" is not the same as everyone else's. Just as you forget that what you call "truth" is not what everyone else calls truth.

Thanks for your response Mitch. But to call this writers article trash without explaining in detail why is useless. Please Mitch, Explain in detail what specific portions you consider trash and why. I am open to your detailed counterpoints on the "trash" parts.

Hmmm... On this thread I have been called or implied to be "uninformed, elitist, judgemental and totally lacking in human compassion, bordering on racist, arrogant and ignorant" and you imply that I have ugly traits. Interesting. I wonder if you as well has ever accused someone of being racist.

As for this Woxof fellow, I am going to look into the archives and read his posts. I'll get back to you on that later.

[chockalicious]

Well Given that Alkaid is the 35th brightest star in the sky the name is probably refective of your respective ranking of posters??

There are probably few who would argue that culture plays a role in a community success but you are so blinded by your pre-conceived notions that you try to find whatever reasonable internet support to back up the somewhat related point youy are trying to make.

In answer to your question about Jews in history or South Koreans and Japans reconstruction after the war here are some ideas although you will probably choose to move the goal posts of your arguement again.

After the wars massive resources were put into the countries by the US to rebuild. They did not simply pull themselves up by the boot straps.

Jews have been discriminated against throughout history but they are no more a monolithic group than Blacks or Latinos are. With respect to WW2 they were given a country and again, massive support, to get the country going.

My point is that not everything in the world is as black and white as you make it out to be. There are shades of gray and nuance that I hope only escaqpe Woxof/Alkaid the internet poster, not Woxof/Alkaid the person.

[Mitch Cronin]

I wonder if you as well has ever accused someone of being racist.

As a matter of fact, yes, I have.

I accused my father and his wife of being racists, as he complained of her treatment in a hospital at the hands of "coloured" nurses. But that's not a tale that belongs here.

I told you one thing I considered trash woxof. His assumption that his measure of "success" is the correct one. ...another thing both he and you ought to consider, is which of these cultures he's examining have a history of being subject to severe oppression? or perhaps still are? ...and how that's helped to shape their culture.

[Guest alkaid]

another thing both he and you ought to consider, is which of these cultures he's examining have a history of being subject to severe oppression? or perhaps still are? ...and how that's helped to shape their culture.

I don't know. Perhaps we should asked the people who have been severely oppressed for centuries. The Jews. Of course if you looked at their history you would discover that your point is of course very false.

Among other things they were....

A Calendar of Jewish Persecution

70 A.D.Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.115Rebellion of the Jews in Mesopotania, Egypt, Cyrene and Cyprus. Jews and Romans inflicted many barbaric atrocities on each other, causing the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews.132-35The Bar Kochba rebellion (Bar Kochba was a false Messiah). Caused the death of 500,000 Jews; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity.135Roman Emperor Hadrian commenced his persecution of the Jews. Jerusalem established as a pagan city. Erection of a Jupiter temple on the temple mountain (Moriah) and a temple to Venus on Golgotha. Jews were forbidden to practice circumcision, the reading of the Law, eating of unleavened bread at Passover or any Jewish festival. Infringement of this edict brought the death penalty.315Constantine the Great established "Christianity" as the State religion throughout the Roman Empire; issued many anti-Jewish laws.379-95Theodosius the Great expelled Jews from any official gate position or place of honor. Permitted the destruction of their synagogues if by so doing, it served a religious purpose.613Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.1096Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom.1121Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.1130The Jews of London had to pay compensation of 1 million marks for allegedly killing a sick man.1146-47Renewed persecution of the Jews in Germany at the beginning of the Second Crusade. The French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews as an introduction to the Second Crusade. It was only because of the intervention of Emperor Conrad who declared Nuerenberg and a small fortress as places of refuge for the Jews, and that of Abbot Bernard of Clairvaux, that the result was not quite as devastating as at the time of the First Crusade.1181French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.1189At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.1215At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.1290Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.1298Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.1306King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.1320In France, 40,000 shepherds dedicated themselves for the Shepherd Crusade to free Palestine from the Moslems. Under the influence of criminals and land speculators, they destroyed 120 Jewish communities.1321Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.1348Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.1370Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.1391Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.1394Second banishment of Jews from France.1453The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.1478The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.1492The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.1497Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.1516First Ghetto established in Venice.1540Banishment of Jews from Naples and 10 years later, from Genoa and Venice.1794Restriction of Jews in Russia, Jewish men were forced to serve 25 years in the Russian military. Many hundreds of thousands of Jews left Russia.1846-78All former restriction, against the Jews in the Vatican State were re-inforced by Pope Pius IX.1903Renewed restrictions of Jews in Russia. Frequent pogroms (massacres); general impoverishment of Russian Jewry.1933Commencement of persecution of Jews in Hitler Germany. Inception of the systematic destruction of 6,000,000 Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe

[Seeker]

Alkaid;

Even if your assumptions about the role of "culture" are completely correct, and I certainly don't believe that myself, what's the harm in trying to change it? Bloomberg and Soros are using their own money (mostly) and anyone who is willing to put their money where their mouth is in such a selfless way as this deserves every bit of praise and support they get. Even if only a few are manage to break free because of the money you'd have to agree that society will have benefitted more than if the rich guys just used the money to buy a bigger boat instead.

[Guest alkaid]

In answer to your question about Jews in history or South Koreans and Japans reconstruction after the war here are some ideas although you will probably choose to move the goal posts of your arguement again.

After the wars massive resources were put into the countries by the US to rebuild. They did not simply pull themselves up by the boot straps.

Excellent point Chock about post-war aid that helped the Japanese and Koreans and actually Europe as well. That money was put to good use to build modern societies where the vast majority believed in hard work, rule of law, higher education.

Now lets look elsewhare and ask how much aid has been sent to the natives, sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, Caribbean. Much of the Arab world has their own gigantic wealth from the money extorted through oil. No shortage of money or corruption or excuses of why they stay behind due to past oppression.

When I see post tsunami Japan with its neatly organized roads through the rubble a few days after the fact while the money flows in and compare it to reading about massive amounts of rape in post earthquake Port au Prince, I know where my donations are going. That is...to the people who have a hope because they create it.

[Guest alkaid]

Alkaid;

Even if your assumptions about the role of "culture" are completely correct, and I certainly don't believe that myself, what's the harm in trying to change it? Bloomberg and Soros are using their own money (mostly) and anyone who is willing to put their money where their mouth is in such a selfless way as this deserves every bit of praise and support they get. Even if only a few are manage to break free because of the money you'd have to agree that society will have benefitted more than if the rich guys just used the money to buy a bigger boat instead.

Obviously their intentions are good and no doubt some good will come from it.

I am just making the point that there is a way bigger issue that is the root cause for the overall large differences between certain groups success or lack of it. Certain people are unwilling to believe the obvious. Perhaps, I suppose, it goes against their deeply held beliefs on their view of society. Perhaps they feel some sort of guilt knowing that their forefathers or relatives of them, did some bad things.

It turns out that I happen to be one of the oppressed groups mentioned. I had relatives slaughtered because of their background although I never knew them. My families history from one grandparent's side no longer exists. Wiped out by invaders who were likely helped by the locals. In fact I can't even trace their history if I tried. I suppose I could use it as an excuse non-economic achievement, but of course I don't.

On the other hand, other grandparents come from the society that sent over people that killed the natives. I could feel guilty about it. But of course, I don't.