Kip Powick Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Unbelievable....talk about wasting money coming up with this stuff. Thankfully this group wasn't around when we raised our kids... We weren't perfect parents by any means but we now have three responsible adults who have professional jobs and are very tight with their parents. IMHO http://canada.com/toronto/story.asp?id=54B0EACF-0678-4CD1-A589-9B92F014DCEB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Kip That's because you were a parent. And for the majority out there, they know how to parent. Sometimes it is in the best interest to be "firm". Nowadays, you see lots of parents who are unable, or refuse to be "Parents" and see themselves as friends to their children. For myself, working as a Scout leader, I see how parents discipline their kids on a regular basis and how they send their kids to groups like Scouts to learn discipline. It should start at home IMHO. As well, it was highlighted to me last night by a teacher who is also a leader in our pack... She teaches in a Middle School (grades 6-8) and she said that the school board is now putting teachers on school busses and having them increase monitoring hallways to stop the incidences of oral sex that are happening. She says that it has become a rampant problem because even at that age group, oral sex is not percieved as sex, therefore it is not a taboo. Could this lead back to lack of "Parenting"??? Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Put me in the "slow" group. For years I thought "oral sex" was just "talking" about sex. I believe in teaching, Truth, Honesty, Respect and Manners. They cost nothing and will hold you in good stead for the reat of your life...and be firm when required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RKM Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I few years ago I was biding on installing CCTV's for a school board out near YYZ so they could monitor these little thugs while on school property. Now here's the best part, the specs called for "prison grade" camera housings. What doest that tell you? Come on folks there is nothing wrong with a little discipline. It teaches respect, something which kids now-a-days seem to lack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Dear Abby; Help! My two boys (age 12 and 10) fight alot. The older one is starting to get physical, by punching his younger brother. The youner one antagonizes the elder one, and eventually he snaps, loses it. I don't believe in violence, and am trying to teach them "hitting people is not acceptable behaviour". But I'm getting frustrated, and sometimes feel that they need a good smack upside the head. I am now punishing by removal of privilges. What else should I do????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Dear Conehead, "sometimes feel that they need a good smack upside the head." Abby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Kip Being treated firmly as a kid, given the education and opportunities that I was given, and shown love and respect has allowed me to get where I am today. Best of all, I took those "lessons" and learned from them without having to need therapy to make my life complete. Some these days seem to feel that they are owed something because they didn't have the perfect childhood. Using therapy to put false memories and ideas in you head causes more problems than is solves. Looking at alot of youth today,,, Some need "lessons"! Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I whacked my daughter once... only once. My son never needed it, but he still knows, if he does, he'll get it. The UN can get stuffed. What the hell do a bunch of beurocrats know about parenting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Your last line, may I humorously suggest... www.gentlevasectomy.com As for dealing with your two boys, you'll never be able to stop it. From my own experience with my brother, the best thing is to ensure that neither gets seriously hurt, and allow them their differences. They'll come to appreciate each other soon enough. Rgds... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 As a parenting philosophy, put me firmly in the no-hit camp. While those who hit their kids often talk about how they're "disciplining" them, it's nothing of the sort. Hitting your children is punishment, not discipline. Discipline involves directing a child's behavior by invoking guidelines containing a consequence which flows from the nature of the issue itself. You don't demand obedience because 'you say so', but because the issue itself requires it. Example: your child is required to bring home a report card with a C+ average. If he or she doesn't, the consequence shouldn't be a spanking, but the suspension of T.V. privileges, because T.V. interferes with doing homework, which prevents a child from bringing home a C+ average. Discipline requires that the parent monitor the child's behavior at all times, and provide consistent and early (verbal) corrections when the child strays from the guidelines. This is how you expect to be treated as an adult; why would you not provide your child with the same learning environment? Example: pilots learn early on that early corrective measures are much better than waiting until things are out-of-hand before acting. Is the SOP at your airline that if you have a G/S deviation of two dots that the PNF punches you in the arm? I'm sure it isn't. The PNF knows to monitor your flying carefully and provide early verbal alerts that your path is deviating from what's required. Discipline requires creativity and thought on the part of the parent. Physically punishing your child is the parent's loss of both. You're not thinking any more, you are physically reacting. You've essentially admitted that you are not smart enough to think of a way to guide the child that doesn't require physical punishment. Hitting your kid's is a lazy, thoughtless way to raise your children. Should it be made a criminal or civil crime to physically punish your children? I believe not. It would be far more cost-effective and socially desirable to teach people to parent without physical punishment. There are already ample legal provisions in place to protect children from real abuse. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 As a parenting philosophy, put me firmly in the no-hit camp. While those who hit their kids often talk about how they're "disciplining" them, it's nothing of the sort. Hitting your children is punishment, not discipline. Discipline involves directing a child's behavior by invoking guidelines containing a consequence which flows from the nature of the issue itself. You don't demand obedience because 'you say so', but because the issue itself requires it. Example: your child is required to bring home a report card with a C+ average. If he or she doesn't, the consequence shouldn't be a spanking, but the suspension of T.V. privileges, because T.V. interferes with doing homework, which prevents a child from bringing home a C+ average. Discipline requires that the parent monitor the child's behavior at all times, and provide consistent and early (verbal) corrections when the child strays from the guidelines. This is how you expect to be treated as an adult; why would you not provide your child with the same learning environment? Example: pilots learn early on that early corrective measures are much better than waiting until things are out-of-hand before acting. Is the SOP at your airline that if you have a G/S deviation of two dots that the PNF punches you in the arm? I'm sure it isn't. The PNF knows to monitor your flying carefully and provide early verbal alerts that your path is deviating from what's required. Discipline requires creativity and thought on the part of the parent. Physically punishing your child is the parent's loss of both. You're not thinking any more, you are physically reacting. You've essentially admitted that you are not smart enough to think of a way to guide the child that doesn't require physical punishment. Hitting your kid's is a lazy, thoughtless way to raise your children. Should it be made a criminal or civil crime to physically punish your children? I believe not. It would be far more cost-effective and socially desirable to teach people to parent without physical punishment. There are already ample legal provisions in place to protect children from real abuse. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Neo, While I agree with much of what you said, I think you reach an erroneous conclusion here: "You're not thinking any more, you are physically reacting. You've essentially admitted that you are not smart enough to think of a way to guide the child that doesn't require physical punishment. Hitting your kid's is a lazy, thoughtless way to raise your children." That may be the case with some parents, and on some occasions, but there are times when very thoughtful parents come to the conclusion, after a great deal of thought, that a sharp awakening is in order. As I've indicated, I've only struck my daughter once, and never hit my son... The same for my wife; she once had to strike my daughter. While shopping, my wife was packing her cart after paying, when my daughter, then nearly 3, walked off and went outside on her own... my wife gave chase and brought her back inside... while she continued the packing, the defiant little girl again decided her mother was wrong about her safety warnings and once more headed toward the door... My wife, a Social Worker (with an MSW), who gives a great deal of thought to parenting, lacking a leash, decided it was time to administer a corrective smack on the bum... it did the trick. The only occasion I used that method was also a response to an immediate need for compliance based on safety. Likewise, the result was an instantly compliant child who never again doubted her need to obey a direct order, and did not get hit by any approaching cars. There's no way to detail the many ways in which a child can be corrected, and in general, I agree that "corporal punishment" is most often not the best method... But there are times when it is the only method left to a parent who needs to make a point very clear. Some children, sometimes, would be worse off without that treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Especially neo's words. I found that very thought provoking. I agree that striking your kids is a lazy response. It is sometimes very difficult to slow the anger, and respond to them rationally. Sometimes I feel that I'm not smart enough for this. It's depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 "While shopping, my wife was packing her cart after paying, when my daughter, then nearly 3, walked off and went outside on her own... my wife gave chase and brought her back inside... while she continued the packing, the defiant little girl again decided her mother was wrong about her safety warnings and once more headed toward the door... My wife, a Social Worker (with an MSW), who gives a great deal of thought to parenting, lacking a leash, decided it was time to administer a corrective smack on the bum... it did the trick." I'd like to offer another perspective, but first let me say that this is not a case of criticizing someone else's parenting. What parent HASN'T swatted one of the little blighters at some point? And for reasons that we felt were appropriate at the time? But when I've reflected on my own acts of that sort, I could not escape the conclusion that it was my own behavior that needed correcting the most. Consider the situation above, which could happen to any parent and which many of us might handle the same way. What are the lessons and messages that have been learned by the child? First off, the child is three, so the suggestion that she,"... decided that her mother was wrong about her safety warnings..." is not reasonable. Three year old children do not think things through in that way. They frequently act on impulse, and I agree that it may well have been a defiant impulse in this case. So she gets a swat on the behind because she defied the mother's instructions. The three year old knows nothing of being hit by cars, she does not understand that her mother is protecting her; what she's learned is that defying her mother brings physical punishment from the mother. That's the message... that's what was learned. But what alternative was there? In this instance, the child is being defiant so you have to put your attention where it matters: on the child. The parent in this case focused on packing the shopping cart as the most pressing task, and took the expedient way to enforce compliance from the child. I believe that's putting the priority in the wrong place. A simple way to deal with this situation would have been to ask for help from the staff of the shop, or from other customers. The mother physically restrains the child from wandering off, if necessary, and asks the staff or another customer to load the cart. Who is going to refuse to help a mother that's protecting her three year old from getting hurt? The message to the child in this alternative is not that she will be physically punished for defying the parent. The message instead is that there are times when the parent will drop everything she's doing and physically restrain the child from acting in a way that puts herself in danger. I think that's a healthier, more loving message. But I hasten again to say that I'm presenting an alternative, not a criticism of Mitch's wife's parenting. The situations where I've physically punished a child were less justified than hers. For instance, the last time I ever spanked a child was when my first (five year old) step-son clobbered his mother in the face with a hammer. I watched it all happen, saw that it was a deliberate act, grabbed him and gave him a good swat. I simply reacted without thinking to that undesirable behavior. Was the message to the child that it's wrong to cause people pain? No, the message was that the one with the hammer, or the stronger arms, gets to cause the pain. By the way, in addition to reflecting on the hypocrisy of my own behavior, it was the reaction of my step-son which, as much as anything, taught me that I wasn't going about it the right way. Far from appearing contrite, ashamed, or remorseful of his behavior when I spanked him, he showed anger. He was angry because I had caused him pain, and that's an appropriate response when someone deliberately hurts you. Conrition, shame and remorse are complex and mature emotional responses appropriate to adults, not to young children. You can only reasonably expect a primal emotional response when you punish a young child. Are we trying to teach people primal responses to behavior correction? Or are we trying to modify their behavior in a way that makes that change seem positive, or even enjoyable? Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I know what you mean. It's so easy to feel inadequate when faced with raising children, because the nature of the relationship often elicits complex and powerful emotional responses. And while there's some human endeavors that you can perform perfectly, parenting is far too messy and impromptu for ANYONE to achieve correct actions at all times. So the message to parents from that is, you have to cut yourself some slack. There are days when you will not be the perfect parent, but that if you work at it you will almost certainly raise fine new people. No one can ask more of you. And in that I think is yet another indication that physical punishment of children is not the way to go. If we, as adults, cannot get the parenting end of the relationship perfect, why would we expect and demand that a young child get it right every time? Short of outright abuse, no one punishes the adult for their shortcomings as a parent. So why would we physically punish a child for his or her inability to act correctly at all times? I encourage you to feel positive and optimistic about your parenting, because it's clear that you care about doing it right. Your children will know that, and regardless of whatever minor mistakes you might make, they will feel secure and loved. It's your willingness to reflect, and modify if necessary, what YOU do to make your family a success that confirms to a child that their parents have their childrens' best interests at heart. Sincerely, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Your boys are completely normal for their age group, and it's you that is bothered by the noise and distraction...right? I grew up the youngest of 10 and watched many a fight between my brothers. My mother just sent them out to the barn where they worked out their frustration then limped in with a bloody nose or two, a few minutes later. Since you probably don't have a barn, I suggest that you grab your spouse and walk out the door, go to dinner, a movie or just a nice long drive. Once they get the message that mom and dad won't chastise the eldest for hitting or the youngest for provoking, things should settle down....for awhile anyway. But face it, it's normal activity for children their age....and that's why I had only one child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Ok, I'll give you that bit about her not "deciding her mother was wrong"... It seemed to flow well with the point. The truth, though, was neither was the smack in the bum "punishment". At least, not primarily... It was, as I indicated, a "correction".... a back-to-reality, "listen to your Mom!" smack. But perhaps that's splitting hairs? Sometimes, individual will seems to ignore the immediate needs, and a care-giver can get the attention and compliance required by such a correction. You're right, I believe, in pointing to what a child learns from the experience, as that is usually* what most matters... In this case, the experience was talked about often afterward and though she's 12 now, she still remembers it. (or at least she still knows of the event, partially owing to the many discussions over the years regarding our preferred methods of discipline) She was told she was hit because she was not listening and not staying with her Mom, and needed to, for her own safety. She learned to recognize the imperative in tone of voice and never again needed such a measure of correction. Unfortunately, she also learned that her mother was capable of intentionally hurting her in certain circumstances. A point which caused her mother much pain. Since that time she has become convinced that should the need ever arise to hurt her again, in order to protect her from more serious harm, it would just as surely happen. And I believe she appreciates that dedication to her safety. Expedience had nothing to do with my wife's actions. She needed the groceries, but more important than that, she needed her child to stay with her when she was told to do so. I believe her priorities were quite right. *By saying "usually" in that context I'm alluding to the occasions where what matters more at the moment is the immediate safety of the child. Anyway, I hope I've been able to demonstrate that there are indeed occasions where it would be incorrect to say: "Hitting your kid's is a lazy, thoughtless way to raise your children." Neither thoughtlessness nor laziness had anything to do with this situation. I'm reminded of poor little Geoffrey Bolger... And I wonder if a corrective smack sometime in an earlier experience might have helped him to learn to stay with his Mom. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Hitting your children is punishment, not discipline... Actually, it's both. Main Entry: 1dis·ci·pline Pronunciation: 'di-s&-pl&n Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French & Latin; Old French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil Date: 13th century 1 : PUNISHMENT 2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION 3 : a field of study 4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL 6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Maybe we should just hit our kids with dictionaries instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest m. mcrae Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Children are like any other young animal...they need a consistent level of correction. Rules of behaviour must be established and adhered to. Like other young animals, physical punishment is def. not the way to go. In a lot of cases, the owner (parent)who does not care to set consistent rules of behaviour is the root cause of the mature animal turning out wrong.(IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 It's no wonder we have problems with chidren sometimes.The MOT consider our kids as possible terrorists as we can no longer take them along with us on our own flightdeck's. In regards to my X-wife I can understand their thinking !! But kids, gimme a break !! Canada's problems lie in Ottawa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Thanks neo. I feel better now. The boys broke a window playing ball last night. I let them know they are accountable for it financially. Sure is nice weather in southern Ontario this week for playing ball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I agree Malcolm... There are remarkable similarities in raising young children and training animals... I didn't want to be the first to mention that... And you're quite right, consistancy is extremely important. Positive reinforcement for wanted behaviour with gentle correction for unwanted behaviour, applied consistantly, will make for some very well behaved dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 110% in agreement with that, Mitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Absolutely! If the child causes damage, having them rectify it is the appropriate answer. After all, adults break things all the time and no one hits us for it. Making the consequence follow logically from the mistake is understandable by even the youngest children, and it teaches accountability. If a child carelessly breaks something, to be physically punished afterward is an abstract result that does not logically follow from what they did. It does not teach the child to fix their mess: it simply means that the child expects to be swatted if he breaks something. In future, if he breaks something that no one knows about he'll just walk away, thinking he cheated the hangman so to speak. Batter up! neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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