Guest CJRT Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Question for AC ground handlers. How long before the union/company changes its policy to allow any AC ramp attendant to assume the position of marshaller if required. We lost a total of ten minutes today holding short of the gate with crews waiting at both bridges but no marshaller to be seen. If this company wants to go forward and become profitable again, little things like this need to be aggressively addressed. There is no excuse for this kind of controllable financial loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Don't have anything to do with the ground handlers but would not AC have to provide all of the ramp staff with the appropriate training before the change can be implemented? I don't imagine that just anyone can marshall in the aircraft without training. You don't want the next thud you hear to be the result of contact with equipment etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 I believe that capability now exists... I'm not gonna go digging for the wording at the moment, but there's some stuff in our new contract that allows anyone to do anyone elses job, provided he/she is adequately trained and capable (or words something like that). So maybe it's just a matter of the non-leads having a brief read through of the contract, and the rules and procedures for marshalling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orange Gloves Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Absolutely correct MM. It is a training issue. Station Attendants have always been allowed to marshal if they’ve been trained. Never has been a contractual issue; it’s a company SOP. If you are interested, it’s covered in Pub 70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jetblast Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 You mean not all station attendants are trained to marshall as a matter of initial training? Wow! That's a real shocker to anyone that has worked in groundhandling for other companies. I think that is the second thing most of them teach after ramp safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Orange Gloves Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 The initial training is usually 5 weeks. During that time, safety is stressed every step of the way. As far as marshaling training, no more then a couple of hours are spent on hand signals including demonstrations. With the exception of the odd local station procedures, Station Attendants come out of the basic course qualified to marshal an aircraft “open ramp”. A common example of that would be the Jazz gate at mainline stations. I believe YYZ has Leads do Jazz marshaling but that would be an exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tritanic Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Common work This has happened to me in the past I was waiting for the aircraft to arrive to address an inbound snag. The aircraft stops short of the gate and we wait for the airport crew to arrive. 5 minutes, 10 minutes. I have been trained to marshal and install the bridge. Ground power is old hat for maintenance. I wish I could have done the job but you have to wait for the other guys as it's not your job. Well maybe in the future. Tritanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Ya know what Tritanic ? Marshal the damn thing,fix it and let the comp. deal with the grievance . Been there done that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Yer not hearin' me... Our new "agreement" lets you do it! No grievances. Under 4.02 "Nothing in this agreement prevents an employee from performing either on a day to day or regular basis, any function or task that is generally performed by any category in order to complete the work required, provided that the employee is competent to perform the work required" In other words, yes, maintenance can marshall the flippin' birds in! (it means a lot of other things too of course, but for the purposes of this thread... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 In the near past we've had some flaps when pilots got fed up waiting and had another pilot marshall the ac to the gate. This of course produced a bit of a backlash. Would this now be acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I thought sometime back that someone posted that the CAIL pilots were allowed to taxi in themselves using the light bars(correct term?) that are on the gates at most large airports. Is this correct and if so are the pilots allow to do so at AC? If not, why not? Sorry for the run on question ...... Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 If any pilot was stupid enough to try that suggestion.....and hit something in the process damaging the airplane......he might just as well pack his bags and go jump off Niagara Falls....because his career in the Company would be over.....Flight Ops would crucify him........As a pilot we are guilty until proven innocent....and if you don't believe me.....I got some prime " ocean front " real estate in Central Florida for sale. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Was not a suggestion ,,,,, it was a question. So by your response, then the information was not accurate and AC pilots don't have the ability?????? Come on man what are you trying to tell me ????? (6) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 My responce was not meant to be critical...it was meant as "tongue in cheek" comedy.....sorry if it sounded otherwise.I'll be more carefull next time .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 No offense taken or intended. Just curious as to what the "real" story was. Seems to me if the flight deck is capable of taxing to the gate without aid and the airport is set up for it, then there is no reason not do do so. But of course my understanding of the subject is that of a layman but I thought that the CP crews had that capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Capability is not the problem...responsibility & accountability is the culprit on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dash eight Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Hmm. Not to mention the fact that your airplane sits for 5 maybe 10 mins due to front end crews NOT calling in their etas and just showing up..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 As well, lets look at the logical extension of this issue which has been brought up before... If a flight is delayed waiting for a Captain who was called in off reserve, wouldn't it be logical to substitute the First Officer off the next gate to get the flight off on time? Aren't they trained in the same procedures from the start also? Just Asking... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 From my experience over the last 25 years,the only place, world / system wide, that there is a constant problem is Toronto. I can land in ORD,LAX,ATL,SFO,etc etc and be at my gate in about 5 mins. The aircraft automatically gives us a prompt at 10,000 and automatically sends an update at 8,000' if we don't change it, with an ETA of 15 minutes from that position. It can be corrected / adjusted by the crew depending on their assessment of the traffic / landing runway configuration. According to our Flight Ops manual we are prohibited from doing anything unnecessary for safety reasons below 10,000'. We are invariably busy enough changing runway / landing set ups as it is, due to it always being a crap shoot arriving in Toronto. So you be the judge. The system works at EVERY other airport wordwide. Since the pilots are intimately involved in the process on every arrival,worldwide, it would appear to me the only difference here is YYZ ATC, and the YYZ ramp crews. YYZ ATC used to be the laughing stock of the entire piloting community, but I must say that lately ( past yr or so )they are improving dramatically considering the antiquated rules / regulations / equipment they have to work with. WTG guys (y)( we needs more Rog's imo....the best controller in YYZ ) ......and I also realize that Air Canada has cut back staff on the ramp. My whole point here is that, yes...maybe an occasional pilot crew doesn't update an arrival after landing for whatever reason, but the overwhelming majority of the delays are from no crew on arrival. "Together we can make great things happen "...or so Rob keeps telling us.....I just wish he would read his own writings for a change. He has no clue what the word " together " means ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 MOT mandates a qualified Captain & FO for every departure. They would pull our operating certificate in the blink of an eye if we ever pulled that stunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 No is the simple answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 That excuse for the ground crew not being there gets to me. There are numerous products available that are as good as ATC radar for showing the order of the landing aircraft and what runway they are lined up for. Air Canada has access to at least one of these. In YYZ STOC it is ony used during IROPS. If it was used all the time and some one looked at who was next to land they could determine Is their gate available if not is there an another gate. Is the crew available or still working another flight should the park crew be called. Call the crew on the radio tell them their flight is touching down. YYZ STOC does not use the tools available to them for whatever reason & does not always know where aircraft are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 I posted that to point out that it only takes a quick change in a regulation and a new procedure takes place. They're doing it to us, and what's to stop them from doing it to you? All it will take is one beancounter to justify the savings and the wheels would be put in motion. Just a point for discussion... Iceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 That wheel's been in motion for years. It's called automation. Someday the authorities will try to convince people of the benefits of pilotless aircraft. We're not quite there yet but, it's coming for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Its about time the ground handling was contracted out to people who want to work. I fly AC regularly and regularly hold short of the gate but only where there are AC rampies. I think BA contracted out their ground handlers. Anybody know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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