Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Hi RR, You are correct on the times. I noticed my error, and retracted my post, unfortunately, too late. My apologies, I could have saved ya a bunch of typing. "Subtle variant of personal attack"?? My point is, just as a thread has a tone, most of yours are of a "What's best for Richard" flavour. My fundamental rebuilding suggestion is: Join the effort in rebuilding the airline, or quit. At this point in time, negativity is not what we need. I learned a new word today, "Hubris" and it is perfect, if you ever need a new handle. By the way, to save you the effort in unleashing a big RR scolding, lighten up a little, maybe even laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Okay..I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 DEFCON, that's certainly one way to look at it. Another is that a lot of AC people (whether they came out of AC or it's private sector clone, CP Air, which never had real wage competition because its competition was a Crown Corp) have no concept of risk. Westjet installed a system of profit sharing/risk sharing which says if the company has a good year, you will have a good year. If the company has a bad year, you will have a less good year. A lot of AC people still seem to believe in the concept of a) we should be the best paid in the Canadian industry (to which I say, WHY?) we should be compensated at the same high level, good or bad times, in other words, we should not shoulder any risk in what has become an inherently risky industry and will continue to be for as far forward as I can see. Some AMEs have said on this forum that they would be happy to accept Westjet wages from AC if they were guaranteed Westjet profit sharing. And then they go and say how WJ AME's with profit sharing included, are paid more than AC AMEs. The problem is, look at Westjet's first quarter, and don't expect Westjet's second quarter to be spectacular either. The profit sharing cheques last year shrunk dramatically, and will be pretty small this year (and that's out of the mouths of WJ people here). There is no guarantee in this industry any more. Yet many AC employees haven't come to realize who their competition is and how they are compensated. They only here how a couple of years ago their WJ colleagues made out like bandits. It's time for a reality check among AC employees. The days of the big fat, guaranteed compensation, job for life and king's pension, is irretrievably gone. Lost forever amid all of the global insecurities and changes to the competitive landscape which have been rocking this industry. Every airline disruption, every war, every terrorist attack, even postal strikes, make people more and more dependent on the electronic technology that makes routine travel obsolete. You can come by this forum and cry and whine about management or the unions or the low-cost competition. But a sea change has occured and there is no going back to the days of Living Large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Hi Mitch I think you might like to give them the benefit of the doubt. Our upper management is up to their ears in gators right now. From what I read, the business world thinks that they are doing extremely well in the financial restructuring of this airline. I think it is up to the employees to find their own motivation right now. Once the financial restructuring is complete I would agree with you that we collectively should have a good luck at restructuring employee relations. Just a thought Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Aubin Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Basically, yes. The process is not as clean as I would be liked, but it is our understanding from the experts that our 'gives' are considered unsecured debt. Philip Aubin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Aubin Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Dagger, Bond holders and employees . . . apples and oranges. A bondholder recieves interest based on risk. The return provides compensation for that risk. That's why new AC debt was running as high as 12% recently. Furthermore, post CCAA, I believe many bondholders have taken their option to sell at a discount of between 50% to 75% to vulture funds (by definition high risk specialists). A more accurate comparison to make would be between suppliers and employees. Both have taken a hit on what was owed to them at filing of CCAA. Both have neogtiated new contracts in place going forward. Philip Aubin AC Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Dagger, I can only speak for myself here of course, but I can assure you I'm not one who cares nearly so much about my financial compensation as I do about enjoying working. And I'd be surprised to find a huge pile of people that wouldn't agree with that to a great extent (providing, of course, that one can still get by with the lower compensation). And that is all about how the company treats us. See my response to Lupin below. There will come a day when AME's take a bigger percentage of the pie. Of that I am convinced. But I recognize today isn't the day for that correction to be made. Go ahead, pay me less than the WJ AME if you must, but if you want me to produce like the WJ AME, then treat me at least as well! I used to think that was pretty basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 I'm listening Greg, and I'd love to give them that break, but not if they're busy breaking myself and my cohorts in the mean time. I know they're up to their necks in hot water, but some things need attention... When you're flying along with one engine at idle and you've lost one hydraulic system and your ADIRU's have all crapped out, would you ignore a master warning light just because you're busy? Of course you wouldn't, and neither should our management. DING DING DING DING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Sorry Greg, I didn't mean for that to sound rude to you... I appreciate your thoughts, and I do recognize that not all things I think are important can be addressed. Some issues are much bigger than just little old me though, and it's for that reason I act like the computer that turns on the little red light and makes the ding ding ding happen. (That'd be the WEU in a Boeing beastie, I forget just now what Airbus uses? CWC?) Anwyay, please understand I'm not just being a noisy, needy child here, I honestly believe the company will be the biggest sufferer if some things get left unfixed. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I responded to your post with the level of humor I thought you brought to the matter. If I misread that, we'll have to put it down to the medium, I guess. But if I might point out in return, you haven't been a barrel of laughs yourself. Have a great day, just the same. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Dagger There's no arguement from me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 "I think you might like to give them the benefit of the doubt." Never do that! We already did and here we are! "Our upper management is up to their ears in gators right now." The swamp was largely of their own making. "From what I read, the business world thinks that they are doing extremely well in the financial restructuring of this airline." Scarey, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Isn't the agreed upon profit sharing concept the "take" response to your "gives"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lupin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Dagger the wages of westjet AMEs are very close to those of an Air Canada AME without the profit sharing.There might be 10%to 15% extra at Air Canada but some consideration has to be given that the AME's at AC are handling between 2 and 3 types of Aircraft. The problem I see with a profit sharing scheme is that of company accountability.I realise it would be impossible to go to a revenue sharing plan but sharing profit at an airline is a risky proposition at the best of times.Even when times are good a billion dollars in profit can be transformed into 4 airbus 340s rendering the apparent profit next to zero. I don't claim to know what the solution is but i'm open to any suggestions regarding equitable compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lupin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Mitch I don't know where you get all this stuff but you always manage to use the right analogy at the right time!!!lol Keep it up ,if management isn't listening you certainly are keeping us entertained ,informed and enlightened!!! Eric Veilleux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Aubin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 No, and the fact that we may take our unsecured claims forward was set out in the tentative agreement. Philip Aubin AC Pilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Could not agree with you more Neo. I hope my post did not come across as directed in any negative way towards Dave, that that surely not my intent. Cheers dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 You are making the same strategic mistake that management is....AC is not WJ and WJ is not AC.....they are two different airlines playing in different leagues....all the airlines you mentioned are niche players almost exclusively operating in the domestic market...what about our international competition....Air France, Lufthansa, British Airways, American Airlines, Singapore, Continental, NorthWest, JAL, Quantas, KAL etc. etc. Should we abandon our international routes to play the same game as WJ? IMO it is the fatal mistake that management is making ... trying to become the king of the minor leagues...if that is the goal then so be it...but IMO it is THE fatal strategic mistake...!! Fortunately or maybe unfortunately I have been in this business twice as long as Milton and from my seat I just don't happen to agree with the course the company is steering....I have seen it before..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 There is the magic word "RISK". The bondholders take a risk. More and more airline employees are recognizing that this is a risk inherent industry now and that they have to accept at least an element of risk in how they are remunerated. My beef is with those who say that should be guaranteed all the wages and benefits they have always had. AC isn't in that business any more. The market has seen to that. I have been advocating here for six months that employees recognize the risky nature of the marketplace and follow their peers at WJ and others into partially guaranteed wages with profit-sharing. In other words, there is no such thing any longer as risk free in this business. The creditors have risk. The shareholders have risk. Suppliers accept the risk that they won't get paid if their customer goes under (or just into CCAA). Even the customer accepts some risk by flying these days because if their airline folds, they may lose their money, depending on how they paid and in which province they reside. AC employees have been unwilling until now to realize this. They have been one of the last components of the Canadian airline business to accept that volatility is here to stay and that the days of guarantees are gonzo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 That could be the case, Greg, but the two issues are not the same, are they? And while there's the compassionate and soft side of me that wants to say, "That's OK I understand, we've all been through such a difficult time," there's the other more 'neo' side of me that wants to say, "Get over it, people! It's time to stop acting like a bunch of deer in the headlights." In general, the employees at Air Canada have been caught completely flat-footed by the events of the last six months, and they show few signs of snapping out of it. We have already taken a serious hit, and we will be eviscerated if we do not start acting like players instead of traumatized kittens. I too hope that Phil's comments are accurate, however thus far I am unconvinced that they reflect the reality. I would like to know more. Best wishes, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 Phil, Could you be more specific as to who the experts were that provided that opinion, whether or not they provided it in writing, and if so could you post or email me with the relevant statements. Thanks, Richard Roskell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Aubin Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 So would I . I can just tell you want the experts tell us. I do know that we will be putting these claims forward. What their value is at the end of the day . . . well we will probably both find out at the same time. Philip Aubin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Geminoid Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 but the question is.....who are these "experts?" Geminoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Hi Phil, As I mentioned below, could you please identify the expert who rendered this opinion, whether or not they did so in writing, and if so could you please post or email me the relevant statements. Thanks kindly, Richard Roskell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 No offence taken. There have been lots of opportunities missed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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