Guest in_the_sky Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 Not ment as a bash against ACPA but for everyone to express what they have done or not done for you personally or as a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigol Posted July 11, 2003 Share Posted July 11, 2003 I can fit an orange up my rear!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Clumsy Lover Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 You mean aside from education, central heating, the aquaduct, running water and the sewer system I mean .. really, what have the Romans..err ACPA ever done for us!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Remind me to skip the fruit salad at your house. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Geminoid Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 And you would know that because...??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest in_the_sky Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Because I am an ACPA member paying lots of money in union dues every month for what? I would be better off buying Air Canada stock with the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 How come I, a non ACPA member, can see where that's a wrong statement, but you can't? Maybe it's because you're so immersed in the stew, you can't taste the beef? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RJP Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I know this is an old piece of advice...but if you don't like what you see, why don't you get involved in a constructive way and try and change it. Run for a concillor/LEC position next election. Volunteer for a committee. Write a commentary for the ACPA Journal. Start a discussion on the EZBoard Air Canada Pilots forum, where you can use your real name and state your ideas. Try offering solutions instead of starting an open ended ACPA bashing thread. Naw, it is much easier just to bitch... RJP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Because Justice Rand says you've gotta. Any other questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I've gotta tell you, that's the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 In depends on which camp one was originally in ie: OAC, Regional, ex-Cdn etc. Everyone would have a different perspective based on whether ACPA was acting in their best interest or not. That is the difficulty that ANY association faces in it's mandate, being able to act in EVERYONE's best interest. I figure if everyone is &%$@! off, they've done a pretty good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 One of the indicators of succesful representation is to have their policies stand the test of time. ACPA has not been around very long yet none of their most vital policies have stood the test of time. Ie. Scope, BOTL merger, and ever burgeoning pay scales. In the scheme of things ACPA is still nothing more than an experiment. To be at the level of disfunction that they appear to be now with so much evidence against them in a failing airline maybe the "Labour lab" should rethink their hypothosis. Bonne Chance! GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 FYI, every one of ACPA's policies was initially adopted virtually verbatim from CALPA. ACPA's constitution is virtually a mirror image of CALPA's, as is it's corporate structure.What does that do to your vaunted theory? Apart from being a training ground for AC & CP flight ops management, and having an almost incestuous relationship with AC & CP, what did CALPA ever do, except let the tail wag the dog? Why else did AC's VP Flt Ops, immediately after the decertification of CALPA, promptly appoint the former PRESIDENT of CALPA, and a LEC executive to AC flt ops management just so they could use their insider knowledge to counter ACPA. Labour experiment? C'mon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marion Vanderlubbe Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 If CALPA was a failure, and ACPA adopted it's policies from CALPA...Hmmmm. Did CALPA have the coin-toss requirement as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 every one of ACPA's policies was initially adopted virtually verbatim from CALPA Did you notice the word initially> in there? No i guess you didn't, pray tell us what esteemed union represents you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Qtip Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Or you could get rid of the biggest problem you'll ever have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marion Vanderlubbe Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I don't belong to any organized labour group. If you were so unhappy with CALPA that you had to take your ball and go home, don't you think you might have spent a moment or two coming up with your own spin on things before the fact, not after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 The policies which I mentioned specifically in my previous post were: Scope, Merger and pay. The scope language that was originally written by CALPA was originally for the sole purpose of preventing the airlines from whipsawing pilot groups until such time that the seniority lists could be combined. This scope language was then railroaded by a special interest group who successfully convinced others in AC that it was the only way to preserve the elite makeup of the AC pilot list. (I still wonder why.) When ACPA was formed, as a result of the AC pilots unwillingness to abide by CALPA policy, they included in their new Policy that any merger would be resolved by the new entrant list to be stapled to the bottom of the ACPA list. On the pay issue I am not aware of any specific policy other than that which has become apparent since 1998. They fail to consider the effect of their pay demands, among others, on the viability of the airline. It's fine to say that ACPA is seeking only to protect the interest of it's membership but surely the intrests of their membership extend further than their next paycheque or system bid. The leadership of any union needs to look beyond the often shortsighted demands of the vocal minority. Air Canada requires a wholesale overhaul which includes a new approach to the way they do business! ACPA represents one of the "sacred cows" that need to be euthanized in order for this airline to progress to higher levels of efficiency and profitablility. GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 don't you think you might have spent a moment or two coming up with your own spin on things Well, I guess you proved that you don't know what you are talking about....enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 ACPA represents one of the "sacred cows" that need to be euthanized in order for this airline to progress to higher levels of efficiency and profitablility I suppose a person could substitute ALPA in place of ACPA as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 Well. Yes, I suppose it could. But ALPA undeniably represents a much broader spectrum of airline interests than ACPA and therefor may be able to embrace a much more progressive approach to the situation. So far all ACPA has done is react to events which they did not seem to be able to anticipate. So far ACPA's reactions have been the same that they have always been; resist, resist, resist. Granted they did submit a pay proposal to undercut part of ALPA's new LOU but even ACPA's own doctrine would recognize that this is entirely self-defeating and contrary to good bargaining tactics. Is ACPA capable of taking action that can be seen by the Courts,the Corporation and other employees as a viable, long range alternative to bankruptcy? GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 but even ACPA's own doctrine would recognize that this is entirely self-defeating and contrary to good bargaining tactics. Soes ALPA recognize their opening salvo as self-defeating and contrary to good bargaining tactics? Maybe playing their cards first was ALPA's mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 Hi GTFA You said >>>They fail to consider the effect of their pay demands, among others, on the viability of the airline.<<< Wasn't it ALPA that negotiated the 25-30% pay increases at AA and UAL a couple of years ago?On the pay issue I am not aware of any specific policy other than that which has become apparent since 1998. The fault lies not with ACPA but with the adversarial system of negotiations that we all seem to have locked ourselves into. Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maranatha Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 "A much broader spectrum?" All the pilots at the "legacy" airlines in the US. Broad representation has nothing to do with good policies. They may be all wrong. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 "On the pay issue I am not aware of any specific policy other than that which has become apparent since 1998. They fail to consider the effect of their pay demands, among others, on the viability of the airline." Write a few words to support this please, then we can move on to the rest of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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