What has ACPA done for you latley?

[GTFA]

Cheers!

GTFA

[GTFA]

Thanks Dragon,

I read your post a couple of lines up and it would appear that you are satisfied that your union has done it's part.

Good luck.

GTFA

[GTFA]

Thanks Don,

Labour the world over is getting a bad rap. People love to blame the unions for gouging the company coffers causing the cost to be passed on to the consumer. Blah...Blah...Blah

What I am trying to find is just what might be an alternative to our existing relationship between organized labour and corporate Canada. Unfortunately it leads me in to a frustrating paradox. I am not a socialist. I beleive that a person should be able to reap the rewards for the risks he takes and do with it as he wishes. I also think that for the most part pilots share an entrepeneurial spirit at heart. I think that it is a strtech for pilots to belong to a traditional "union".

All that aside, I think that where AC is today is a result of many unfortunate curcumstances, some more controlable than others.

Where do "We" go from here? I strongly believe that it is incumbent on the employees to become more actively involved in the management of the company. Coming to work and doing you job is just not enough right now. And, to facilitate this, I strongly believe that AC desparately needs a more contemporary and open minded executive team.

I sincerely hope that the labour reps can get their noggins together, especially ACPA/ALPA, to save themselves by influencing the company in a positive direction.

I like what Westjet has done but am unsure where it will take them. I am beginning to wonder if it will be like United and destined to fail.

Sorry for trunkating my conversation but your statements and observations are most provocative and I like to keep this type of discussion in the forefront. Thank you for your contributions.

WE ALL NEED TO KEEP THE BIG PICTURE!!!!!

GTFA

[GTFA]

Thanks Don,

I had just finished a well thought out reply to your post but it would not "take" on the forum... and now it's gone.

I am very frustrated with this situation and am going to give up for the day.

Thank you very much for your contributions to this discussion. I think that it is very important that it be kept in the forefront throught these troubled times in order that we remind ourselves to "KEEP THE BIG PICTURE".

GTFA

[Guest V1V2Vgo]

Hi GTFA,

FYI, I have found that if you "refresh" just prior to posting, it will always post. Hope this helps.

[Don Hudson]

GTFA;

Re "I am not a socialist."

No, nor am I. But taking care of the workforce so that the work can get done is not socialism, its good business sense.

That is why the present trend, begun around 1970 or so, regarding the treatment of employees at the hands of large corporations, (this is not a comment about AC, but about organizations in general) is an incorrect way to proceed.

"Careers" have been turned into "jobs", professions into piece-meal work, part-time work, junk jobs, contracted-out jobs, short-term work, all nickel-and-dimed so that such employees cannot make a decent wage and therefore a decent working life is the salient characteristic of our times so far as work, employment, corporate behaviour and such goes. True, its complex and there are many quiet success stories, but the large trends are there: pay employees as little as possible, give them as few benefits as possible, ensure they have no voice, or if they do make it as meaningless as possible.

What makes such circumstances for a broad range of employees even more difficult to take, (and I see a backlash building which will result in legislation), is the inordinate and at times obscene senior management settlements and quiet, backroom deals which have been uncovered over the past five years, while employees' pension plans, for example, languish and otherwise simply take their chances in the stock market, unprotected. While it very likely is not the case everywhere, what protection do employees have against such deals when they occur? What purpose do accounting and audit firms serve when they facilitate such behaviour rather than serving their original purpose, which is to ferret out such actions?

It is the shareholder's and senior manager's time; That is clear. But the imbalance between all three, owner, manager and employee, cannot remain forever. One cannot work in a system which is inaccessible, untrustworthy and seemingly rigged against employee well-fare.

Again, these are large trends. Not all companies exhibit a predisposition towards such behaviours all the time. Enormous profit pressures driven by shareholders/owners to continue what were double-digit profit sheets provided the impetus to cheat: That much is clear. And because human behaviour is exceedingly sophisiticated and complex, such drifts into compromised behaviours within one's job description are tempting to be sure. Honor is not always profitable. In fact, cynicism has been provided rich and fertile ground to grow in, creating both perpetrators and victims as narrow, immediate gain is pursued.

Re "I beleive that a person should be able to reap the rewards for the risks he takes and do with it as he wishes."

Certainly. Within limits, and I think a liberal approach to business is historically the case.

Re 'I also think that for the most part pilots share an entrepeneurial spirit at heart. I think that it is a strtech for pilots to belong to a traditional "union" '.

From the very earliest days, pilots were treated as "quasi-management" level employees. Airline pilots were seen to have that kind of interest in their company, and took on that kind of responsibility. In fact, only recently, a long-standing Air Canada program called Captain's Visits to Heads of Industry was cancelled, the original premise being that equals spoke with equals (in these PC Egalitarian strive-to-be-non-elitist days, such a statement will be castigated, but that's the way it was and it worked very well) and the airline provided a personal, high-level contact for organizations which did a lot of regular business with Air Canada. A lot of problems got sorted out this way and never made the front pages. These days, any complaint in aviation is fair media game, and always Air Canada's fault, but times change and they will again.

But after de-regulation, margins began to come under extreme pressure and costs became huge issues. The bean-counters and those who pressure the bean-counters took a look at pilot salaries and decided it was too much, and began to put pressures on both ends...productivity and money. I could write a book on what happened after 1988, but the phrase, "the airlines have the pilots' unions they deserve" is not entirely a sloganized mantra. Times again, have changed and instead of a prestigious career and profession, "Airline Pilot" has been steadily eroded into a job, because its easier to justify paying "a job" low wages than a profession. Its easier when the reasons and justifications for self-respect are removed and an industrial stance instead of a professional stance is forced upon a group, to control that group. The term "Association" turned into "Union" around 1995 or so and confrontation became the cost of reduced wages, more overt control over a powerful group of employees, again, forcing an industrial response as opposed to a quietly negotiated process where fairness and respect emanated from both sides of the table.

So much damage has been done now to that relationship and, frankly, common understanding, that it will take a couple of generations of pilots going through this adversarial system to even begin change towards a more congenial, cooperative approach.

Re "All that aside, I think that where AC is today is a result of many unfortunate curcumstances, some more controlable than others."

Well, again, very obvious. We can, in my opinion, begin the list with the Federal Government's Transportation policies since about 1960 and proceed from there. Its a big story.

Re "Where do "We" go from here? I strongly believe that it is incumbent on the employees to become more actively involved in the management of the company."

Well, given present circumstances, I don't think that's a possibility. "Managers" manage, and "Employees" do the work. The term "Siloing" is used to describe the walls which people build around them to keep out threatening information such as possible improvements in their own areas as suggested by others. This is not a phenomena limited to the company under discussion at all, but is very common in large organizations. People will not promote ideas from the outside, and will be threatened when ideas for their own domain are suggested.

The key of course is to recognize this reality and engender an open discussion where ideas above all, are welcome. In a large organization which has not had a history of such behaviour, that is very difficult. Good grist for Doctoral Theses however...

I remain always an optimist, although operating under a cynic's principles however, primarily because the optimist has a better ride, but I don't want reality to whack me across the side of the head. I frankly believe that the majority of our problems do not arise from adversarial circumstances and angry employees, first of all because I strongly believe that most employees at Air Canada are reasonably content and similarly optimistic, even as they are frightened about their futures. I believe 99% of them do excellent jobs and adhere to high personal standards, look for ways of being effective and efficient all on their own, and provide superb service to our customers. We just go about our business.

We just don't read about it. The successes of Air Canada doesn't sell newspapers, which, for the umpteenth time I will say, I do not and will not subscribe to or read.

Ultimately GTFA, I believe Air Canada is doing exactly as you propose, for the problems are not "employees vs. managers", it is the fact that so few people are flying.

But when the business picks up, Mr Beddoes may become a bit more sedate in his unbounded enthusiasm for bashing Air Canada. The fact that new AC investors are swirling about in the background should say a lot about our future. In aviation, it is always dangerous to brag, and it is always hazardous to kick competitors when they're down, especially in such a small community as Canada. While the industry has its public and media darling right now, times change.

Don

[Don Hudson]

I have lost more than one "good" post that way...I simply compose in Notepad (no word wrap on) and then copy/paste when I'm ready to post. Losing a lot of work and thought is really painful, isn't it?

dh

[GTFA]

Cheers Don,

Not much more that I can say after that.

Thank you for responding to my musings.

One last thing to think about. What do the investors that are swirling about in the background want??? What will their new investment look like? Is the coporation prepared to embrace a new way of doing business? Structurally I mean.

[E-HANDLE]

I believe those investors will want to see AC make money. I believe they will have little appetite for the "Market Share Uber Alles" philosophy that they have seen to date. I believe they will not stand for $5 million a day in losses, without paying the bills.

Those same investors may be a little disurbed to see Tango offering fares of $19 between YOW-YYZ and YYZ-YHZ for $49, or YVR-YUL for $99.

Like Don Hudson, I'll be happy to se Air Canada leave CCAA protection. Because then AC will have to make money.

[Don Hudson]

GTFA;

Re "Thank you for responding to my musings."

Its one point of view. I think its important to express it, but its not the only view, for sure. Some think that employees are "pampered" and indeed I have seen that term used here in discussions such as these. The use of this pejorative term is merely a variation on the general attack on employees, but enough.

Re "What do the investors that are swirling about in the background want???"

The ability to make enormous quanitities of money in a fairly short period of time without interference from labour or suppliers, the former of which will be "caged" until 2009.

Profits and opportunity may fall short of that, but I suspect a number are salivating at the chance to watch this airline grow and knock the socks off this industry in Canada. We're poised for it, and so is pent-up demand. We're already starting dailies back to Asia, and when the market turns around as it eventually will, (two years? dunno.), the money to be made might well be spectacular. Such growth will ameliorate much of the discontent expressed, but growth is as difficult to manage industrially, as shrinkage is, (as in, who shares the bigger pie?).

Re "What will their new investment look like?"

Like Southwest only prettier; like Westjet only far more aggressive; like double-digit profits and shareprice, which is the only thing that counts right now right after getting a whole lot more bums in seats.

Re "Is the coporation prepared to embrace a new way of doing business? Structurally I mean."

See above. The superstructure is already there and they're ordering the office furniture...

Cheers,

Don

[GTFA]

ALRIGHTY THEN...

Don Hudson for KING of AIR CANADA!!!!!!

See ya.

GTFA