Guest jazzpilot Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I had a little reality check today after overhearing a conversation which involved a respected manager on the regional side. That person said that the company believes there are three outcomes of a no vote by ACPA or any other labour group. 1-The government steps in and imposes a contract. The company does not think they will do this as there has been intense lobbying by other players in the industry not to. Also Air Canada has used up all it's good will in YOW and the feds would be just as happy to let it go away and deal with the short term issues. 2- Farley imposes a contract. Again the company does not see this happening because of the prescedent it will set for future CCAA filings. 3- They liquidate. This will be the most likely result if the labour agreements fail. It will be an orderly shutdown over about three months. There may be an attempt to keep certain companies like Zip and Jazz operating, but the odds of them surviving a failure of the mother corp. are slim. It was also indicated that the creditors are getting very anxious and unless they see some real progress fast, might just force a liquidation anyway. So people it appears all groups are in this together with very few, if any, friends on the outside. The question that ACPA, the Jazz F/A's, IAM or any other group needs to ask themselves is the following: Will you have better job prospects after the votes are counted. And will that job offer good pay,extended health, dental, pension, travel, etc. The answer is most probably no. And if that is the case then it would be very unwise to vote no. It is better to live now to fight another day for what is important to you then to give it up with a no vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 It seems that many among the ACPA folks represented here feel that it's just another bargaining session. Some don't seem to care that we could all be toast. I don't mind saying it's tearing at me to see this crap going down! Ultimate irony... trashing a company because of a bloody seniority battle. Will the debate continue over who gets in the unemployment lines first? Good grief people, have you all lost sight of the fundamentals? Fly the airplane first, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 ...the question that ACPA, the Jazz F/A's, IAM or any other group needs to ask themselves is the following: Do You Feel Lucky? Well, do ya? Sorry all - this is your Waterloo. You're either on Nelson's side or Napoleon's. There doesn't appear to be any peace keeping option available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mtc. Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Nobody here seems to get it.... None of the possible scenarios that jazzpilot mentioned will happen.... Don't you people realize that everyone in the business end of all this (creditors,Farley etc. etc.)is wrong and ACPA has all the answers? The rest of the world will wait for ACPA ....... Won't they ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DHC8/CRJ AME Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I think the only way to settle the seniority issue at ACPA is to shut down the airline. It offers the least amount of hassle for any one. The arbitrator doesn't have to make an unpopular ruling, and then have it tied up in court for years, thus forcing the creditors to liquidate the company any ways. It appears that neither the ex-Canadain group, or the old Air Canada group will accept a compromise. They'll just "fight" themselves, and a lot of other people out of a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DHC8/CRJ AME Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 I think the only way to settle the seniority issue at ACPA is to shut down the airline. It offers the least amount of hassle for any one. The arbitrator doesn't have to make an unpopular ruling, and then have it tied up in court for years, thus forcing the creditors to liquidate the company any ways. It appears that neither the ex-Canadain group, or the old Air Canada group will accept a compromise. They'll just "fight" themselves, and a lot of other people out of a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Hi Mitch, Many repeat many ACPA pilots don't visit this forum. Many do and never post. Some post infrequently. Some post a lot! My point is that you can't take the ACPA pilots temperature from this venue - if you could we WOULD be in trouble. The silent majority is out there IMHO. Cheers Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Hi Chico Have you ever got that right. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I'm certainly no expert, but since it's just us non-experts yakin' here anyway..., I think that's not quite true. Both sides have agreed to compromise on what they'd really wanted to happen, it's just the degree of compromise that keeps snaring them. The sad thing now is that it sounds like a lot of them aren't that far apart in that degree after all. Yet, there they are, seemingly prepared to destroy their careers over the difference of a few positions on a list. The ex-CAIL guys, having sat in the spots they're in now for a few years already, would likely find anything closer to what they considered fair, a welcome softening of the blows we're already taking. Whereas the O-AC folks will naturally see any such thing as an added twist of the knife, so for them it's difficult to see that things were already lopsided; it looks to them like they're being hurt worse. The relative position of the viewer at work. I only hope they can separate the Keller business from t/a and do what needs to be done after agreeing to their portion of the concessions. I agreed to ours today. Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Thanks Chico. I'm glad to hear that. And I suppose I should know it.... Sometimes though, I think the sampling of opinion we see here may be somewhat representative of that of the wider groups. Anyway, good luck mate, Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I'll third that! I often fly with guys' who have never even heard about this site..or the ezboard site. DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av8tr Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I am an ACPA pilot and I will be voting "YES" . Not so much yes to the TA but yes for the sake of all our jobs. Not just the pilots. I don't want anyone to get laid off but that is no longer possible. What is possible though is that by voting yes, we can do our part to try and preserve the jobs of those that will remain employed and preserve the life of the company so that when the time comes, those that were laid off can be recalled when the time comes. Ultimately, SOME JOB IS BETTER THAN NO JOB! Seriously think about the consequences of what a "NO" vote could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Actually lads, If one were to assume that 70 pilots post here on a regular basis( I'm told it's not that high).....that leaves 98 percent of us in the sidelines...Lookng every once in a while..listening to what the wife says about it every once in a while....but not posting. By the way,,,as long as I'm at it.... Air Canada is going to continue to operate now and in the future. The travelling public can continue to book in confidence, and rest assured that when flying on any aircraft associated with the airline, the flight is being operated by professionals who put safety first....yours truly the silent majority.....print that Mr. Newspaper.. Dave Thomson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemic Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 I think the only way to settle the seniority issue at ACPA is to shut down the airline. It offers the least amount of hassle for any one. Well...the 40,000 plus customers (per day) might not agree with your solution... mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Good stuff Dave. And in case anyone happens to be listening, to that they can add that our airplanes continue to be maintained to a top quality standard. Mitch Cronin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dashedexpectations Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 You're dead nuts on JP. Bottom line is: people are owed money. They will not hesitate to burst anyone's bubble to get what they can. IMNSHO Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theman Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Hey av8t, if everybody would think like you, it would be wonderfull, thank you for this post and hope you will have more concient like you in your family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theman Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Another wise or SMART pilot in the A/C FAMILY.........................Bravo!! This Cie would need more like intelligent people like you..Once again BRAVO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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