LongTimer V Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Like i said in the past "am i the only one worried about Air Canada not surviving........ http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1052251591401&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimer V Posted May 17, 2003 Author Share Posted May 17, 2003 Seems my leader still hasn't learned to keep his yap shut.Somebody get him a burger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Longtimer V.... I've given up on the idea that there can be any solution to this incredible mess....management doesn't get it ...the unions sure as hell don't get it... the game is over...they're all still singing the same old brainless song....the judge is getting his 2x4 ready but it won't be enough...too many selfish people are in denial of what CCAA means......I had only 5 years until retirement but now with my pension at risk, I'm looking for new employment....my guess is soon....so will alot of other employees..! As I've said many times...sad....sad...sad..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Good point, no one gets it. Pamela Sachs and Dave Ritchie are friggen' idiots. I can't wait to see Ms Sachs and Mr. Ritchie asking people if they want to "super-size" that order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Finally...a chuckle from all of this.... :> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Finally...a chuckle from all of this....:> I applied to be a greeter at WalMart but was told someone from AC had already got it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Finally...a chuckle from all of this....:> I applied to be a greeter at WalMart but was told someone from AC Management had already got it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 LTV; Re Justice Farley's comment, "It has not been a crown corporation for the past 15 years," he added. Air Canada "has to prove itself in a competitive marketplace. If it cannot do that, the competition will fill the gap, likely with significant disruptions and great detriment to the public and all stakeholders." - Toronto Star, May 17, 2003 There is good basis in history to challenge this statement. For 15 years, Air Canada has been anything but a "private corporation" in the usual sense. It has been fettered and hobbled with all manner of government invigilation and interference. It has been hog-tied by the ACPPA, being forced into constraints not faced by other airlines in Canada. It has had route restrictions placed upon it in attempt after government attempt to "arrange" the marketplace. The pundits, the seers and the critics all espouse the virtues of the "free market" and how it "sorts out" the weak from the strong. That only works if free market forces and all the players are allowed to function freely and under the same rules for all. Air Canada has never had that chance. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfhunter Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 All true but the point remains that time is short. When the fire is out and the red trucks have left the scene, a smart dog with a keen sense of smell will be called in to locate the accelerants for further analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 WA777, liquidation may well be on the way. I said at the beginning of the CCAA process that it was a 50-50 possibility. That being said, I have firmly believed that no deals are possible between labor and management until the possibility of liquidation is staring all firmly in the eye. We are getting there, and I have reason to believe that there is more happening at the bargaining table than one would assume from the public statements of union leaders. I'm not saying you have nothing to be worried about - quite the contrary. But I know from the history of these things than when the prospects for success begin to look dim, that's when the real progress usually begins. Of course there is always the risk of overplaying ones hand in a situation like this. The next couple of weeks will be interesting. AC begins concession talks with its lessors on Monday, and will make offers to its unions on Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 No matter how hard one tries, it is pretty hard to see the way out of this mess. Everyone is trying so hard to protect ones' interest and empires that we have lost sight of what we need to do. Unions vs management, union vs union and employee vs employee. It has been going on for years and it won't go away in a few short weeks, even though we are about to go over the waterfall. Air Canada mainline pilots vs ACR pilots has been going on for years. At this particular stage it really doesn't matter as to whom is more to blame, except the fact that the distrust runs so deep that even now, facing oblivion, we are both trying to make deals that will protect ones' empire versus the other ones'. There are so many fights that it makes the mind spin. F/A's against the pilots, skilled vs unskilled labour, Canadian vs Air Canada, CRA vs Canadian and most importantly a total us vs them attitude that is perpetuated by both management and the unions. The distrust runs so deep that the two unions with the most easily replaceable staff are being the most difficult. (That is not to belittle any of the f/a's or ground staff, it is just reality). Out of all of this we have lost total focus as to what we are in business for...the customer. While we have been fighting our internal battles, a little company that actually cares about its customers has grown into a really big company. 9/11, poor economy and Sars would have still taken its toll on our airline, however had we not lost sight of our customers, maybe not bitched about the merger in front of the paxs, or done the extra mile to help out a little old lady who needed an answer not just its not my job attitude, maybe just maybe, we would be able to work together as opposed to dyametrically opposite directions. Short of a miracle, in my opinion, Air Canada is doomed. What we haven't been able to muster over the last 3 years of near-monopoly, we will not be able to do in a mere short 2 weeks. The unfortunate reality is that the world of aviation has changed dramatically, most likely for good. Until the management and the unions realize this and start working together, nothing will change. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marion Vanderlubbe Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 At the same time AC had government-ordained route exclusivity into its most profitable market segment, and when US Open Skies was finally established the implementation was structured to favour AC. You can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 I think dagger's view is as close to the reality as any I've heard. It's about 50-50, and Air Canada management and unions know of no other type of bargaining than 11th hour and 59th minute negotiations. What drama! neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 It's not just AC in this case. I think CCAA or Chapter 11 requires more profound change, and such change can only be sold to the various stakeholders if they believe a worse fate is imminent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 I'm not sur how Open Skies was constructed primarily to AC's benefit. CA, for example, made a conscious decision to approach Open Skies differently, in part because of its relationship with AA. They could have thrown a lot more capacity into the transborder market than they did. It was a commercial decision, not a legal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Well said, dozerboy. If AC survives in some form, I hope we learn from our mistakes. While I don't believe that AC is necessarily doomed, I do believe our past way of doing business, and our terms of employment, are gone. Regardless of the outcome of CCAA, the future will look considerably different from the past. Given the mistakes you have mentioned, how could it be otherwise? neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 There's some truth in that. Nevertheless, the dysfunctional elements that characterize the entire labor-management relationship in this proceeding didn't just pop up because of CCAA. They've been with us all along, fed and watered by each party's unwillingness to recognize that a worse fate lay down the road. The terms under which the negotiations are takin place are different, but the manner in which they are being fought bears striking resemblance to that which has gone before. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Wolfhunter; Agreed. Aftercasting and investigation is relatively easy, but that's not the point. I'm making an observation about the current players and the nature and extent of the comprehension of the problems faced by all involved. I want this process to succeed as much as anyone. The result that AC survives and perhaps even flourishes as a restructured carrier is foremost. But there has to be an understanding of the history of these problems so that they can be solved once and for all, and not either set aside as inconsequential, or worse, misunderstood for the power they can have in determining the success or failure of any final solution. In other words, and its been said many times by others, fix what got us here or we'll be here again. To fix it, one must first understand it. Every Minister of Transport since our privatization has done nothing to further Air Canada's ability to compete freely in the Canadian marketplace and instead has actively prevented Air Canada from doing so. It is the government of Canada which has failed to cut the apron strings, not Air Canada. I know there are other factors, labour not being the least. But its been de-regulation for every airline in Canada since 1988, except for AC. That's not after-casting, that's looking to fix a fundamental problem which, if not fixed, will doom whatever rises out of the CCAA ashes. The biggest signal in all this was Air Canada's acceptance of private DIP financing. That was a large signal which said to Collenette, 'butt out...we don't want your strings'. I'm looking here at the longer term. To your point however, that "time is short"...you ain't whistlin' Dixie WH. Who knows what short term solutions are to be found should such an outcome obtain? Off to LHR. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Don: of course there is another problem / practice that has put Air Canada into a pickle and that is their drive over the years to eliminate all competition, no matter the cost, starting with their battles with Canadian Pacific Airlines. In my opinion, unless AC takes a new direction in this regard, there is fainthope indeed for survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QTip Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Don, After reading your post I must ask you the following question: What have the pilots at AC mainline done to further Air Canada's ability to compete freely in the Canadian marketplace? I would say just about ZERO!!! Their contract restricts AC's ability to make a profit in the domestic marketplace with one of the most restrictive scope clauses in the world. My guess is the scope will be gone or AC will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wa777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Dagger...I don't believe that even the threat of liquidation will get these boneheads to agree to anything.... IMO the mentality of the past and the "me..me...me" attitude just ensures failure......I can hear it now......"NO WAY till the last day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WA777 Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 Dagger...I don't believe that even the threat of liquidation will get these boneheads to agree to anything.... IMO the mentality of the past and the "me..me...me" attitude just ensures failure......I can hear it now......"NO WAY till the last day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsgas Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 QTip I agree and would like to add that going on strike only bites the hand that feeds you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dozerboy Posted May 17, 2003 Share Posted May 17, 2003 The scope will be gone, but be careful what you wish for. It may get to the point that ACPA negotiates a wage and working condition that makes it un-necssary for Jazz at all. With tier III coming up behind and new working conditions at mainline, where does that leave Jazz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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