Air Canada is goin down if...

[Guest QTip]

We merged 4 airlines to make AC Jazz. DOH. Yes there are some people who are upset and some that are not. If you don't change the rules half way through the game everyone sort of knows what to expect. But change the rules because it's going to affect me in a negative way and you have a problem that only CCAA and Judge Farley can fix.

It's that simple.

[dozerboy]

Fair enough you are entitled to your opinion as to what happened 10 years ago. Both sides are equally to blame, ACPA had reasons and ALPA had reasons. Both could have done a much better job. However, in the CCAA process no one who makes the financial decisions really cares about the ACPA/ALPA fight.

The question is now, how do we move forward, forget about the empires and save the corporation?

[Guest QTip]

dozerboy,

You don't get it yet. Judge Farley said on Friday that it would be a "very significant mistake for management or the unions to see the CCAA process as negotiations. ACPA have priced themselves right out of the domestic marketplace in Canada and if AC emerges from CCAA my guess is that RJ'S 90 seats and down will be flown by Regional pilots on the Jazz list.

[Guest QTip]

There we go... Lets see what the company wants and lets get the deal done and work together to save this DOOMED BIRD.

Good Luck

[dozerboy]

Qtip, I am sorry but what out of what I said makes you think that I don't ge it? Chances are that you and I have been around this industry just as long, and believe me I get it crystal clear.

I agree it is not negotiations. We are in CCAA and it ain't pretty. As much as I would like to see a working solution between ACPA and ALPA, I just don't see it happening. What it will come down to unfortunately is, who makes the "better presentation"? With the working conditions that will be worked out/imposed/whatever at ACPA, I just question whether there will be a need for Jazz. You can turn this into a confrontation if you choose to, I really don't care one way or the other. If you choose to blame ACPA and mainline pilots for all and every evil with this corporation then this is a waste of time.

Cheers

[LongTimer V]

I'm willing to give this right now.If you young bucks(the ones with under 10 years) are not willing,then see ya.Besides its us old farts that have negotiated your nice pay checks and benefits.Right now the most important issue to"me" is my pension.I feel i have at least a right to that after all these years.Maybe if the compant see's a honest number then we might get somewhere.10% is not gonna cut it.IMHO

[Guest QTip]

..and we both know that. Don't we?

Cheers Don

[Guest Airmail]

I don't know how "management doesn't get it". It seems management has been trying to get concessions -- first outside CCAA, now under CCAA -- since Feb 6.

Maybe management didn't try hard enough? I don't know how that could be true since management was criticized for trying too hard by, among others Sachs and Richie.

Maybe management should have tried to do it outside CCAA? It seems that management did try to prevent CCAA but was told by every union except CALDA not to expect any significant concessions until the company was placed under CCAA.

Even now, with death literally staring us in the face, the public rhetoric from some union leaders would lead anyone to believe that the union leadership still need to be convinced that the situation is extremely serious, the livelihood of thousands of people are on the line and that massive concessions are required without any further delay.

The excuse that not enough information is being provided is just that -- an excuse or, if you wish, a delaying tactic. Information has been coming from the company in spades and, if you don't believe what the company provides, an independent, court-appointed monitor. Unfortunately, this delaying tactic only serves to push AC closer and closer to oblivion.

Unfortunately, some still believe that nothing is wrong, that this situation can be corrected by an upswing in traffic/revenue and that no sacrifices are required and if if they are required, they should somehow be short term or minimal.

How many times and how long have we heard that the "model is broken" and that dramatic changes are needed to address AC's cost issues? We'd better heed this call now or it may soon be too late -- unless it is already too late.

[Guest Airmail]

20% of a $3 billion labour cost pile = $600 million which is still below that pre-CCAA target of $650 million which is below the post-CCAA target of $770 million. This has got to be more than just about a 20% across the board pay cut but a combination of productivity improvements (fewer employees, working more) and wage rate reductions. Examples can be found south of the border at UA, US and AA.

You're absolutely right on pensions -- the best way to protect pensions is by ensuring that AC continues as a going concern which has the ability to continue funding the pension plans. If the pension plan is wound down because AC is liquidated, everyone gets screwed.

There's no point in playing the blame game because the game is over. We're talking about the lives of individuals here -- human being with families to feed, house and clothe.

There is no more time for name calling, for posturing, for second guessing, for playing chicken, for over-reaching, for bluffing, for pounding fists on the table, for wishful thinking, for denial.

This is real and the clock is getting close to midnight.

[dozerboy]

Longtimer, ya gotta be kidding. We are all in this together. You want to make this into a oldtimer versus young buck thing, then you are nto better than the other unions!!!

[Guest GDR]

Hi Airmail

You are right on the money. We can't afford to be talking about how little can I give up to make this work. We are talking survival.

The company has proposed some form of profit sharing. If this is done right, and we give up too much we can recover it with a good profit sharing program.

As long as I am talking about profit sharing I'll give my own preference to the type of profit sharing that we might receive.

I am in foavour of stock options, preferably with an expiry date a long way out. The reason that I prefer options as compared to other possible programs is this;

1/ The money that we receive does not come out of company revenue. It comes from the issuance of new shares, meaning that the company actually receives new money. (The strike price of the options.)

2/ The money that we receive is a captital gain and is taxed at half the rate of money that is received from other forms of profit sharing.

I think that it is important to realize that the cost of giving too much is far less than the cost of giving too little. With the attitude that is being displayed by some of the unions we are gambling with our homes to try and save the money that would buy us a used car.

Even 70% of what we get now is better than EI, and as I said with a good profit sharing plan hopefully we could recover a good chunk of that.

[Guest QTip]

I think not! Getting rid of the Jazz name OK but there is no way the pilot group is going away. In the short term yes some will, but as soon as an order for new RJ'S starts to arrive then they will be back with us working hand in hand with the company to make a better and bigger airline.

Cheers

That will be a wet dream in itself(pornographic)

[Guest GDR]

I think it's worse in this country. There is still the mindset by many that hold leadership positions that the gov't should solve the problems that we face.

Absolutely, the gov't has been a big part of the problem and they should immecdiately remove taxes and fees from the industry. They haven't even been able to sort that out as the liberal party is so fractured that we basically don't have a functioning gov't right now.

Other then what I mentioned there will be no help coming from YOW. We have to do this ourselves.

Greg Robinson

[Guest Airmail]

GDR: Profit sharing for sure. It has proven to be quite successful at several companies and, for employees, as a real generator of wealth. At the end of the day, if everyone has a stake in the success of this company, it may be the tonic needed to ensure that everyone pulls in the same direction.

The bottomline though now is that we've got few options left and anyone thinking that we do is in for a devastating surprise.

[Guest GDR]

Let's just hope that the reality of the situation sinks in before it's too late.

Greg Robinson

[LongTimer V]

I stand to lose a lot more then you sonny.I have suggested a 20% pay cut.What have you come up with.We are the union or have i missed something.The Judge should impose a temp settlement,forget what Dave Richie and the boys have to say.Lets get on with it!!!!

[LongTimer V]

[Guest QTip]

Just got back from a cruise and spoke with a 15 year UAl 747 FO. She just took a 40% cut and that's USD. I think if the mainline is going to live on some will take a larger cut than the token 10-20%. Don't you?

[dozerboy]

Sonny?

I am now beginning think that you are not an Air Canada pilot but someone who is trying to stir the pot or you must be totally so self-centered that you are willing to take a pot shot at anyone.

Anyways old man, this isn't a competition you miserable old fart!!!

[Guest flyersclub]

cdn was working from a different position than ac on open skies. cp only had two historical mainline routes from canada to the u.s., lax and sfo from yvr. ac always had all the tb and the best/easiest/smartest way for cdn to now serve tb routes was through the aa codeshare. look back at ac's revenue's tb in the 70's and 80's .. big bucks for ac to nyc and chi etc. .. apples and oranges.

[LongTimer V]

I know now your not a ACPA member

[Guest floatrr]

I just can't leave this one alone. Listen old man, It is the young bucks that have to clean up the mess the old bucks have created over the years. Yea you have a right to your pension ,just like every other employee has a right to the job they have now. I'm just curious, How much of a decrease in take home pay will you realize with a 20% cut. Do you still have a young family to feed and shelter. Will this mean that you might have to sell the summer beach home in Malibu or the 40 foot motorhome or the collection of exotic cars and motorcycles? The greed of people like you are why AC is so hooped. All the best for your retirement. Because thats all that matters to you isn't it?

[Guest Max Continuous]

>> But I know from the history of these things than when the prospects for success begin to look dim, that's when the real progress usually begins. Of course there is always the risk of overplaying ones hand in a situation like this. <<

So assuming that, that is correct, what exactly is to be gained by all of the drama with the posturing? What specific information, is supposedly not being disclosed at the table, and holding up the show? LET'S GET IN THE GAME HERE!

How close to the falls does it all have to get? There must be a point where the legal current prevails, with reference to your over playing of ones hand analogy.

[LongTimer V]

Its people like you that will make Air Canada go belly up.See you in the U.I line sonny.

[LongTimer V]

I didn't earn $50,000 sonny You do the math.My old mind isn't what it used to be.Where does it say you "Hava A right to the job you have now.I did my time,i payed into the pension plan for over 30 years.What gives you the right to anything,other then riding the coat tales of us old farts who fought for the decent wage and benefit package that you don't want to give up.Give it a rest.Its reality check time sonny.