dagger Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Why isn't the APA waiting for Chapter 11 at American? http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/030325/airlines_american_unions_2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Good question. Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Perhaps because they can afford to take a 60% pay cut and STILL make more than an ACPA pilot?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 Well that doesn't around the double dipping question raised by ACPA Maybe the APA realizes that acting now may reduce the blow if they wait another few months and AA has to downsize that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 Well that doesn't around the double dipping question raised by ACPA Maybe the APA realizes that acting now may reduce the blow if they wait another few months and AA has to downsize that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Dagger ... there is a due diligence process underway between ACPA and the company. You better believe that US ALPA had a third party party go over AMR's books. No disrespect intended but I mean who would trust any CEO and board of directors in today's business world? IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Yeah, cause things are usually better when they say things are bad. Give me a break. It's an excuse to do nothing. Let someone else make the first move. Leadership from the rear by popular opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 a tad redundant aren't we.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 With all due respect, Max, the CAW - not a slacker union - did its due diligence of AC in a matter of days and concluded the situation is very serious. ACPA hires outsiders to determine the same thing, oh, three weeks later. Hope you get your money's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I've heard a rumour that the amount is north of 6 figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigbigbus Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 ACPA hasn't ruled out concessions. The issue is still being examined and the due diligence process has yet to be completed. The delay is due the company claiming it needs another week to provide requested information to the accountants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 MCDU, I believe calling a spade a spade is appropriate at this point. The delay in due diligence is largely ACPA's responsibility. It took our union almost six weeks just to get started, and that was barely a week ago. Whereupon at the first obstacle (due to documents not being immediately available,) our MEC tried to shift the blame for the delay to our employer. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Maybe it was, Richard, but the current delay is a result of company inaction. So it takes 6 weeks, or 8 weeks. We didn't get here because of our own actions- we are responding to someone else's failed business plan and being asked to bail out somebody else's mistakes. Since there will be long-term repercussions expecting us to respond immediately without doing our homework is not reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 And Schwartz gets how long to study Aeroplan alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 That's a dubious analogy since he doesn't have to invest in Aeroplan. His is the only offer on the table. Now if somebody came around and offered more for Aeroplan than Schwartz is offering, that would be another matter. You or I don't know if AC is in an exclusivity situation with Onex now that the closing has been extended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Personally, I'd rather be looking back in 2 years trying to get back something from a solvent company that I gave away in the heat of the moment. That's better that looking back and wishing they had done something as the C3 guys did the morning they woke up to the unemployment line. If Air Canada is doing as well as is insinuated by the very fact that ACPA feels that a full due diligence exposee is necessary, then the money will show up sometime. It can't be hidden forever. Securities rules make that impossible (and dangerous for senior exectives). You don't have to crawl out on the wing and look in the cowl to know that you've lost an engine. You can feed in some rudder now or wait for the point at which it won't make any difference and you find yourself hearing the inevitable "Whoop Whoop" with blue side down. Part of the failed business plan includes the historical pay and benefit package that all employees have come to know. The company has been making small changes to its business plan with Tango, Zip and AC Jets along with initiatives such as Six Sigma. And employees have been helping with those, but it's obvious to anybody that it's not enough. It's true that there's a point at which you can't give anymore, but I don't see anybody in the company that could be called "hurting" for what they've given up to help out so far, except for those currently slated for layoff. For the rest of us, an extra day of work per month and a small pay cut probably would mean we can still live in our current home and still buy a new car every 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1 Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 I agree with you a day or even two a month extra, a reduction in pay would be easy for most of us absorb and probably even well supported by employees with just a bit leadership from the top. I discuss this situation with others the common view (right or wrong) is whats the point with all of the rest of the money wasted around here. I guess the view is it would not make any difference in the outcome of events. How do you get the Pilots on board, just show us that you are serious and prepared to really make some changes yourselves. The most glaring example to me is the 41NoB Captains on an equipment like the 767YYZ. RG gets asked obout it at the roadshow and he says no changes are planned. Well, hells bells. The Checkers spout off in flight planning about low stick times , why are the stick times so low, cause youve got 41 guys all making well over 250K on one equipment doing administrative tasks. So ACPA finds out what management really needs and its cash ,15% ++. Why doesnt Mangement say we need to better schedule check rides, replace flight mangagers with civilian administraters and stop making unnecessary manual revisions so that you can make major reductions to the Standards group and reverse the latest standards reorg.there. When 20% of the Captains representing 35% of the salaries are required for management something is rotten in Denmark. Are things bad? one would never know by the way this department is run. Give us some actions to believe in. - Work for amendments to sick rules such as requirement to make-up lost flying due to "short-term sickness" - do 2 leg rapidair line checks - end AQP -stop buying simulators/toys. What the heck is saved with a daylight visual anyway. -end IPFs and lofts, why train to prepare for training. Do required PPCs and re-train failures as required. -Eliminate/sell-off excess sims. -replace flight managers with Admin people -end "projects" -require all but skelton management to fly DMM, reduce admin duties accordingly. Then ASK for 15% from pilots. Be creative lead and don't be greedy. Ask for what you are prepared to do yourself. Our futures depend on it. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Nobody's insinuating that Air Canada's doing well and that the money is hidden. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's entirely possible that it's already too late and that concessions would just be wasted trying to plug an impossible leak. That's what needs to be determined before someone throws our hard-earned cash away. Using your analogy- nobody disputes the engine failure. The engine was already shut down and the airplane is on the ground while the operator and manufacturer argue over who will pay for repairs before that airplane returns to service. But that doesn't quite fit, does it. So how about my own dorky analogy: A group of neighbours are gathered around a beloved old maple tree that is tottering precariously after a severe storm. Some have cheap nylon rope and tent pegs. Others have pruning shears and saws. One guy even has a chainsaw and is arguing that we should just cut it down and plant some new trees. From their separate and distinct vantage points, everyone can see dead wood and parasite damage. But, nobody can agree on where to cut, and to be honest, none of the neighbours really know what the tree needs, anyway. Instead of just cutting blindly, hoping to lighten the tree's load, maybe someone should just call in the CCAA Tree Surgeon. The damage runs deep and if we fool ourselves with a snip here and a cut there- we may see the thing fall during the next storm, anyway. Those CCAA Tree Surgeons will know what to do. The parts of the tree that provide support can go relatively unscathed and the damaged sections can be pruned back. The tree might not look so good after he's done, but the healthy sections will remain and the overall viability is more assured. (See? I told you it was dorky.) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lupin Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Good post mcdu!! I in your example probably would be your neighbour with the chain saw.... Sometimes when something is broken to that point fixing it is just delaying the inevitable ,pruning, support rods etc only help if the tree is in mildly poor health. Sometimes its better to cut it down,plant a new tree and let it grow to be a healthy tree.Its very hard to get all the parasites out of a sick tree as they are normally embedded too far in the tree to be removed by pruning or medication Lupin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Problem is.... it takes a long time to grow a great tree. You and I would probably never sit in its shade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Yes but, It is worth enduring the heat so that those who follow may enjoy the shade of a healthy tree. A lasting legacy of doing the right thing is better than just being a sidebar to a history of desparation. GTFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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