Guest George Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 From the post below about US Airways The company said that it had no choice but to scrap the old pension plan, to meet the financial constraints placed on it by its post-bankruptcy lenders. That's how it works. Still think you should wait for CCAA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hewlett Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I believe the implications of Chapter 11 in the States are considerably different than CCRA in Canada. I'm not endorsing the prospect of CCRA but you might want to clarify this before posting any more comparisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The term is CCAA, not CCRA. Two totally different subjects. If you don't know the proper abbreviation, how can you debate subject of CCAA vs. Chapter 11? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 By the way Hewlett, there is a big difference between Chapter 11 in the US and CCAA in Canada. In the States most airlines enter Chapter 11 first, then either restructure successfully or liquidate. In Canada, most airlines bypass CCAA and go directly to liquidation. My MP tells me that despite David Collenettes musings, liquidation is definately still an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Understand that the political agenda is served if a good (read spinnable in the media) effort is put forth, even if the patient still dies on the table. Those who think for a minute that there is a rescue in the cards are hurting themselves and their colleagues. Get on with it. Entering CCAA is placing your future out of your hands and even those of the Minister. Just my opinion. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Agreed. It distresses me to hear some Air Canada employees still chanting the "Full Pay 'Til The Last Day" mantra. The feeling seems to be that concessions didn't work for Canadian and they won't work for Air Canada. Well folks, from what I hear the "Last Day" is close at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The point was not a direct comparison between Chapter 11 and CCAA but the general point that someone else starts to call the shots and there's not a lot of bargaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Forget the employees per se. They have no club. Re-structuring requires creditor committment or CCRA "rationalization" of debt and AC cannot continue with its present debt load. Liabilities FAR exceed assets....make the assignment NOW and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lupin Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Just a thought.... Will wage concessions be enough to keep Air Canada afloat?Will everything start coming together...revenue increase...loads go up with pay concessions? With the heavy debtload AC is carrying maybe ccaa is unavoidable....maybe it would be a good thing to restructure the debt as well...consolidate and get a fresh start. Lupin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 My information is that some major creditors are ready to move if the unions move. Let's face it. Even a bondholder would rather get 40 cents on the dollar in a viable company than to get 15 cents on the dollar selling assets in a liquidated company. As to your question about wage concessions, well, nothing - not even CCAA - might save any North American airline if we get a full year like we are having this month. Bookings are cratering, not just at AC but on every major airline you can name. I spoke to a close friend at a European carrier - one not part of the coalition - who said right now the only people travelling to Europe are must-go travellers, and even the ethnics flowing through Europe to, say, India, are using consolidator rates which, as you can imagine, are ridiculously cheap right now. Wage concessions alone are not going to save Air Canada. But they are a key part of the picture, and it is possible that they only have to be temporary, if they come with greater worker productivity (fewer people doing more work, to bring AC employee levels in line with other NA airlines.) Air Canada has a 4% annual staff turnover through attrition. If Air Canada had more liberal work rules then Air Canada could progressively reduce staff so long as it doesn't have to replace them to keep the operation humming. Alternatively, if market conditions improve to, say, 1999 levels, the airline could keep current staff levels but add a lot of flying without adding more labor cost. In all likelihood, some short term wage concessions are necessary to a) slow the cash drain secure creditor and government action' c) attract additional financing I posted this here recently - and I know this for a fact - that there is a European bank ready to give AC some financing if the airline's prospects look decent. I would say that this financing will be available through April, but no longer. The Onex deal is scheduled to close at the end of April. So wage concessions in some form probably help give the company breathing room in the short term and help secure longer-term aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Lets hope that ACPA and IAM and some others get their damn DD done and start showing some leadership. ACPA is claiming (apparently) that they are awaiting some data that the company has to produce. Well, if the firm doing the DD hasn't seen enough to tell them that AC is in trouble, then they're "stupider: then even I imagined! Earth to AC unions. Get your collective heads out of the sand or you'll be working for 25% less and with about 25% less of you employed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whenever the next ACPA meeting occurs, I wonder if anyone has the b@lls to ask some tough questions of the "leaders"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Well, if the firm doing the DD hasn't seen enough to tell them that AC is in trouble, then they're "stupider: then even I imagined! I suspect that the process is not to determine if things are bad but to determine if things are so bad that concessions would be useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Maybe, but the ACPA leadership has never said that publically and if that is true then the president's interview in the National Pravda was probably true, ie, we don't want to give twice...but then denied by the MEC chair, that's not ACPAs position...so which version is true? But of course ACPA never puts a slant on things, never manipulates opinion. AC management and AC union leadership deserve each other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hewlett Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 OK, CCAA. CCRA was a typing error. All I was questioning was whether pension funding wasn't more protected under Canadian laws than in the USA. It seemed to me that when Canadian Airlines was in serious financial trouble, the return of all monies in the Registered Pension Plan (not RRSP, Stone) or benefits to be derived from those funds wasn't in question although any funds for benefits above the government allowed maximum would not have been protected as they would have come from company general revenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 You were probably thinking of the Creditors' Relief Act (and stuck Canada in front)...or maybe the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency which isn't unreasonable at this time of year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Abbreviations galore.. even CCAA has two different meanings: Canada Cooperatives Associations Act Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hewlett Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Maybe you can help as I've obviously got my C's and R's and A's mixed up. When Canadian Airlines was in it's final days it was under some form of protection and then I believe Air Canada put it under the next step during the buying/merging process. Regardless of the process, it was my understanding that the registered pension plans (up to government maximum benefit levels of about $1722 per year of service)were protected throughout. True? False? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Ok George, lets say the unions bend and agree to concessions, AC stays afloat for a bit, but the way tis company operates they will more than likely cut fares again and in six months they will come knocking agin for more concessions, UAL and USAIRWAYS did exactly that, where does it end, when we pay AC for the privaledge of coming to work! While I am willing to give up a number things in my contract, my base salary is not one of them, cut 25% OF THE STAFF, it should have been done long ago,then lets see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 After today you won't have a choice what cuts you take to your salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 Well Stone, if you know something that the rest of us don't, enlighten us, don't just post some comment with no backing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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