Quick update please

[dragon]

am checking in from a small cafe in switzerland, on the road, short of ime and being pulled in a few directions - no time to read everything. would somebody be so kind as to summarize what has taken place the last two days up until now, 0907 EST --AC and ACPA and CCAA. I appreciate that, I must check in later with only a minute, thank you.

dragon

ACPA pilot

[Par88]

No real change....scope (110 seat aircraft) the big sticking point.
Farley will impose a deal or bankruptcy on Sunday AM if no deal by 0000EST tonight.
The imposed deal would send the matter to binding arbitration.....and further spark up the forum.

[Guest Eventer]

Jazz a sour note with pilots
ANALYSIS: Union lawyer says jobs being lost to subsidiary at heart of impasse
By KEITH MCARTHUR AND RICHARD BLACKWELL
00:00 EDT Saturday, May 31, 2003
TORONTO -- Behind the dollars and cents, it's all about Jazz.
Air Canada has been able to secure $609-million in concessions from eight of its labour unions, but the $251.2-million offered by the pilots doesn't come close to resolving the impasse.
At issue is a proposal from Air Canada that could see its regional subsidiary Jazz grow to nearly double the size of the "mainline" carrier over the next few years.
Jazz pilots are represented by a separate union, with a substantially lower pay scale.
"Part of what this is about is a dispute between two unions," Richard Jones, the lawyer for the Air Canada Pilots Association, told reporters yesterday.
Mr. Jones said the mainline pilots have offered Air Canada $251.2-million in annual cost savings -- meeting Air Canada's goal to come within 5 per cent of $257-million.
But Sean Dunphy, a lawyer for Air Canada, disputed the pilots' numbers, saying calculations by the court-appointed monitor Ernst & Young Inc. conclude that the pilots' proposal only provides 25 per cent of the required cost savings.
Behind the numbers is a dispute about who will fly the 85 new aircraft Air Canada is planning to acquire over the next six years.
A deal that was signed last weekend with the Air Line Pilots Association allows the Jazz pilots to fly all aircraft with up to 75 seats.
The Jazz pilots would also be able to bid against the mainline pilots for aircraft with up to 110 seats.
This is threatening to the Air Canada Pilots Association, which represents the mainline pilots, because Air Canada has said it wants to move to a much smaller fleet of aircraft.
The airline's restructuring plan involves retiring all Boeing 747s and Boeing 737s and ordering 85 smaller jets with between 70 and 110 seats.
"To put this in perspective, if Jazz is successful in capturing the 110-seat aircraft, then by 2009 -- using the company's projected fleet plan -- Jazz would have 219 aircraft and Air Canada mainline would be reduced to 132 aircraft," Rainer Bauer, chairman of the Air Canada Pilots Association, wrote in a letter sent to the 3,150 mainline pilots.
"To say this is unacceptable is, to say the least, an understatement."
Mr. Jones said the union has offered to transfer all aircraft with up to 55 seats to the mainline. But ACPA is insisting on keeping larger planes for its own members.
He said each aircraft that is transferred to Jazz means the loss of about 14 ACPA jobs.
"That's just a devastating number of jobs. We're not prepared to sacrifice half the pilots," Mr. Jones said.
Mr. Jones has suggested that in order to resolve the impasse, Air Canada may need to back out of the contract it has signed with the Jazz pilots.
"When people make agreements in haste, sometimes they discover that things said in the middle of the night don't seem to be remembered the same way by other people," Mr. Jones said.
But observers say Air Canada would appear to have the support of the airline's creditors in its efforts to shift aircraft toward Jazz's lower-paid work force.
That's because the creditors are expected to own Air Canada when it emerges from bankruptcy protection. Air Canada has said it expects to convert up to $9-billion in debt into new shares in the airline.
Air Canada, which filed for bankruptcy protection on April 1, has said it needs to cut more than $800-million from its annual $3-billion labour bill. It has secured a commitment for $682-million in labour savings from eight other unions.
Yesterday, an Ontario judge gave Air Canada until midnight tonight to reach a deal with its pilots.
If a deal can't be reached, Mr. Justice James Farley will convene a rare Sunday morning court session to decide how to proceed.
Judge Farley has said lawyers should be prepared to give arguments on whether the court has the jurisdiction to impose a new labour contract, and whether the airline should be assigned into a full-fledged bankruptcy.
Mr. Dunphy told court yesterday that Air Canada was "not even close" to reaching a deal with its pilots as talks resumed last night.
"What they put on the table was nowhere close to the template that all of the eight other unions came to, and all I can tell you is the accounting doesn't add up," Mr. Dunphy said.
But ACPA president Don Johnson said the union has already met the company's demands.
"The company has said they need $257-million. We met that target in our minds and if Air Canada wants to make a decision that they need to shut it down because they can't get something different then I guess they'll make that decision," Mr. Johnson said.
Mr. Jones dismissed as "nonsense" Mr. Dunphy's suggestion that the pilots have moved only one quarter of the distance needed to come to a deal.
"That's just not true," Mr. Jones said. "The details of the package that was presented this morning Mr. Dunphy dismisses out of hand. But certainly it looked to me that on Air Canada's own numbers it was largely there."
The offer adds up to concessions of $251-million, Mr. Jones said, and "this is not a trivial offer at all."
Combined with concessions from other labour groups, "in the short term there is more than enough on the table, in the union proposals, to straighten up the cash flow of this airline," Mr. Jones said.
© The Globe and Mail

[Guest Hawkeye]

An excerpt from the Globe & Mail what ACPA Pilots Lawyer had to say about transfer of Aircraft:

Mr. Jones said the union has offered to transfer all aircraft with up to 55 seats to the mainline. But ACPA is insisting on keeping larger planes for its own members.
He said each aircraft that is transferred to Jazz means the loss of about 14 ACPA jobs.

IMHOP: Herein lies a small part of the problem. Jazz can crew the same aircraft with 8-10 pilots under the new ageement. Big savings the Company needs to help it restructure. Creditors like this also because they will own the airline when it emerges from Bankruptcy protection.

"That's just a devastating number of jobs. We're not prepared to sacrifice half the pilots," Mr. Jones said.

Mr. Jones has suggested that in order to resolve the impasse, Air Canada may need to back out of the contract it has signed with the Jazz pilots.

"When people make agreements in haste, sometimes they discover that things said in the middle of the night don't seem to be remembered the same way by other people," Mr. Jones said.

But observers say Air Canada would appear to have the support of the airline's creditors in its efforts to shift aircraft toward Jazz's lower-paid work force.

That's because the creditors are expected to own Air Canada when it emerges from bankruptcy protection.

[Guest Labtec]

I would say those planes won't fly without the pilots. You had better get an agreement with the pilots as well as the creditorsor this baby is out with the bath water.

[Seeker]

See, that's the problem with you guys. Maybe it's best to start with a clean slate?

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

"Jazz can crew the same aircraft with 8-10 pilots under the new agreement. Big savings the Company needs to help it restructure. Creditors like this also because they will own the airline when it emerges from Bankruptcy protection."

No problem, my collegues and I have worked at Jazz before. We'll just transfer back with our original seniority and operate the aircraft under the existing Jazz contract. Unfortunately, as reasonable as this is, the Jazz pilots would prefer to go for a home run and see their fellow co-workers at the bottom of their list. It's really unfortunate that it has come to this, for everyones sake.

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

"Jazz can crew the same aircraft with 8-10 pilots under the new agreement. Big savings the Company needs to help it restructure. Creditors like this also because they will own the airline when it emerges from Bankruptcy protection."

No problem, my colleagues and I have worked at Jazz before. We'll just transfer back with our original seniority and operate the aircraft under the existing Jazz contract. Unfortunately, as reasonable as this is, the Jazz pilots would prefer to go for a home run and see their fellow co-workers at the bottom of their list. It's really unfortunate that it has come to this, for everyone's sake.

[exGXer]

Funny, it seems that when it looks like a former Jazz type might have to look for a job because of the current ongoing circus, it all of a sudden becomes 'reasonable' that he/she should slide right back in from where they left. Yet that same person was only too happy to tack on BOTL when they left Jazz for the supposed greener pastures of AC mainline.

Funny how some people reason things out.

[Guest Hawkeye]

Why do pilots at Jazz have to get an agreement with ACPA Pilots? You guys may act as if you own the a/c however the planes will be deployed on routes that merit them for the lowest cost and flexibilty. Jazz has more than ever now, established itself as AC Low Cost Airline.

As the Globe & Mail points out, the CREDITORS are on side with AC Managenent. They want the best return on their investment, lower labor cost with much more flexible working rules. Are you going to tell them what to do also.

If you want the airline to survive, and I'm sure you do, would it not make good buisnees sense to have Jazz to compete with the WJ's and others. ACPA appears to be focusing on protecting everyone's job, that's fine but in these times let's be realistic, ACPA will lose some of it's members like everbody.


I have seen lots of numbers anywhere from 400 to 800, the company wants. But I have yet to see on any post here the number that ACPA accepts that will have to go for now.

Therefore, if you accept the fact AC is in serious trouble and has to become smaller, how many do you realistically think will have to be laid off?

[Guest Hawkeye]

Why do pilots at Jazz have to get an agreement with ACPA Pilots? You guys may act as if you own the a/c however the planes will be deployed on routes that merit them for the lowest cost and flexibilty. Jazz has more than ever now, established itself as AC Low Cost Airline.

As the Globe & Mail points out, the CREDITORS are on side with AC Managenent. They want the best return on their investment, lower labor cost with much more flexible working rules. Are you going to tell them what to do also.

If you want the airline to survive, and I'm sure you do, would it not make good buisnees sense to have Jazz to compete with the WJ's and others. ACPA appears to be focusing on protecting everyone's job, that's fine but in these times let's be realistic, ACPA will lose some of it's members like everbody.


I have seen lots of numbers anywhere from 400 to 800, the company wants. But I have yet to see on any post here the number that ACPA accepts that will have to go for now.

Therefore, if you accept the fact AC is in serious trouble and has to become smaller, how many do you realistically think will have to be laid off?

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

As I said, unfortunate. There are many groups of pilots at AC. Some that advocate BOTL, some that have been placed bottom of the list and others that advocate fairness and respect for the profession whether you are flying a DHC8 or a 747. Respectfully, you should consider this before painting everyone with the brush you are presently using.

Incidentally, I was not at all happy leaving (CRA) under the agreement but felt that it was the right decision at the time. Perhaps I was wrong.

[Guest Hawkeye]

Yea Right" So you hold two Seniorty #'s, one at AC and one at Jazz.

You can transfer back at your convenience. Please enlighten us how this is possible given you submitted a letter of resigination to the Regionals. What labor law in Canada would allow any employee anywhere in the country to go back to thier original job at the expense of others.

((("Unfortunately, as reasonable as this is, the Jazz pilots would prefer to go for a home run and see their fellow co-workers at the bottom of their list.")))

Unfortunately, this is exactly what ACPA did, BTOL. ACPA set the rules, now you will have to play by them.

If you want your seniorty (DOH @ AC) at the Regional level, then it has to be reciprocal to the Regional Pilots.

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

"Please enlighten us how this is possible given you submitted a letter of resigination to the Regionals."

Actually, I didn't. Nor did anyone else who moved over under the CRA/CAIL LOU.

[exGXer]

All I am saying is,you resigned from Jazz and in doing so you forfeited the right to return to the Jazz fold nowhere but BOTL, regardless of your or anyone else's personal views of the whole situation.

The AC pilots stuck it to us with the Picher award, the CIRB stuck it to us with the CE and now it seems the pendulum is starting to swing the other way, the ALPA group must all of a sudden take pity on the poor souls that are being sacrificed, all because the AC pilots could see no further than the end of their noses way back when they approached the GX group with regard to merging the respective seniority lists.

[Guest Hawkeye]

How is it possible that you worked at Jazz before when it did not exist until last year?

[Guest Hawkeye]

That word "REASONABLE", the lack thereof is the reason ACPA is the lone holdout and no deal will be reached.

Well said exGXer!

[Guest Dick Dastardly]

I guess that means that you only have one year seniority with Jazz since it didn't exist prior to that. Give it up.

[Guest Hawkeye]

Actually, maybe you should have landed at Jazz when you left CRA. You would have had CRA'S DOH unlike what you & colleagues received where you are now!

[Vsplat]

"unlike...where you are now".

Sir/maam, where are you? Tongue-lashing another pilot who is down.

It has been said that aviation relies more on goodwill than fuel. I would rather leave aviation than promote such an environment. If this is "where you are now", then you can have it.

Sad to see it has come to this.

Vs

[Guest Labtec]

The big reason that the corporation must get an agreement with ACPA: IT'S THE LAW. There are 100 years of precedent and statute law that makes it so.

Why can't ACPA just get an agreement to fly the Dash-8's for 35K in the left seat and 15 in the right and have the JAZZ pilots at the low end of the aircraft scale take the biggest hit? If they pass our interview process we would simply re-hire them BOTL. Again the law gets in the way. However, the law has never been a big initial impediment to this management team.


I can assure you this is being discussed by Calin and Milty. The numbers may be a little off but the idea is being talked over. You slash the bottom and take a percentage say 22% from the top. We get the Turbo-prop work and all the RJ work under conditions that are more flexible and cheaper than the JAZZ offer. The JAZZ operation simply shuts down and we pick up the pieces. The problem with each of these scenarios is that each raises the spectre of successorship rights.

This means more litigation and more handsomely paid lawyers. I like the sound of that.

Labtec

[Seeker]

There was a time when that sort of post would get me all riled up but now I see that you're just whistling in the dark. You've cast the die and in a few hours we'll see what you've rolled.

[DEFCON]

So, are you suggesting that you come back to Jazz at the top end of the list?