Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[Turbofan]

20 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

 

Just poking a little at "the beast". In a past life, I dealt marginally with municipal unions....fire and police....each seeking parity with each other and province wide regardless of risk. We couldn't negotiate with those unions in good conscience and went to arbitration. We ALWAYS lost.

UpperDeck,

You clearly haven’t kept up with the actual story and in doing so are propagating a narrative that is only partially correct.

 

You clearly didn’t listen to this.  Yes I get it’s long.

In summary our old wages from pre bankruptcy, inflation adjusted to today, and comparing across the border are the same numbers.  Comparing across the border is meant to show that getting our old wages back is not unreasonable.

The narrative Air Canada wants is we are being unreasonable by looking across the border without mentioning we have never recovered from our bankruptcy losses.  Our Final Offer selection losses in 2011.

 

 

 

[Turbofan]

The labor minister and the Prime Minister doing damage control at a labor convention in Winnipeg.

Are they really going to intervene twice in a row?

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

1) Corporations are greedy and evil;

True.  The whole idea behind a "corporation" is to be as greedy as possible - generally phrased as to "seek maximum profit for it's shareholders".  Some corporations are evil.  Not that I think it's a goal but they certainly are conscienceless.  

 

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

2) Unions are solely motivated by the desire to enhance the well-being of their members;

Yes.  What else should they be motivated by?  Unions seek the best deal for their members in the same way that corporations seek maximum profit.

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

3) compulsory arbitration breaches the right of workers to collectively withdraw their services;

Yes, it does.  Unless, of course, they are an essential service.  Right now the gov and the corps want to have their cake and eat it too.  Are the railways an essential service (with the associated rights and obligations) or not?  If they are - binding arbitration, if they are not then their rights have been breached.

 

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

4) airline pilots should be paid "significant" salaries and receive enhanced benefits regardless of the impact on other employees and the employer simply because there is a shortage of pilots.

They seek salaries and benefits commensurate with the cost and effort to obtain the required training and skills along with the lifestyle impacts and responsibility the career demands.

 

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

This notwithstanding that SOME current airline pilots really aren't pilots in that "old fashioned way" and can't distinguish between taxiways and causeways and runways and apparently are puzzled by the impact of ice formation on the aircraft wings!!

In that case let's include executives that can't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.  Let's include elected members who can't understand that hiring your brother-in-law's consulting firm for a sole-source, no-bid contract is an ethics violation. 

It's true that occasional, rare accidents find human error as an underlying cause or partially at fault.  Same as when the space shuttle crashes, a train crashes, a nuclear reactor melts or a doctor makes an error.

These are the sorts of comments that come from someone who has never experienced somatogravic and somatogyral Illusions.  Someone who's never looked out the window at a wet runway in reduced visibility with moderate turbulence in a aircraft rapidly burning fuel and had to make a snap decision to land or go to the alternate airport.  No, I'm not trying to make pilots look like movie action heroes - the point is that the job is far, far more complicated than the public realizes.

I hired a lawyer recently and it's been nothing but incompetence.  Many of my friends have the same story.  If pilots flew aircraft like lawyers lawyer there'd be a crash every day.

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

Just poking a little at "the beast". In a past life, I dealt marginally with municipal unions....fire and police....each seeking parity with each other and province wide regardless of risk. 

What risk?

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

We couldn't negotiate with those unions in good conscience and went to arbitration. We ALWAYS lost.

Your point is obviously dealing with "essential service" designated unions.  The AC pilots are not an essential service and neither are/were the railways.

The gov and the CIRB acted illegally in the railway matter.  What will be the consequence?  Nothing.  They'll say, "oh, sorry, we were wrong", nudge, nudge, wink, wink.  

[UpperDeck]

15 minutes ago, Seeker said:

True.  The whole idea behind a "corporation" is to be as greedy as possible - generally phrased as to "seek maximum profit for it's shareholders".  Some corporations are evil.  Not that I think it's a goal but they certainly are conscienceless.  

 

Yes.  What else should they be motivated by?  Unions seek the best deal for their members in the same way that corporations seek maximum profit..........

These are the sorts of comments that come from someone who has never experienced somatogravic and somatogyral Illusions. 

Your point is obviously dealing with "essential service" designated unions.  The AC pilots are not an essential service and neither are/were the railways.

Seeker...Forgive me but I was tongue-in-cheek for most of my post and taken aback by your acknowledgement of your belief that 1) corporations are greedy and evil; and, 2) unions and corporations are equivalent.

Yes ..public corporations SHOULD be motivated by the goal of maximizing shareholder returns. Some are successful; others not. Those same corporations are employers and responsible employers recognize and reward employees whose contributions enable the realization of that profit incentive.

By definition, unions serve the best interests of the "average" and protect the under-achiever. Those who excel and who are desirous of advancing the interests of their employer are frowned upon....there can be no individual "lets" on contractual terms.

Labour groups advocated for increased minimum wages in California. Ask how many "mom&pop" operations have suffered as a result of their advocacy. Not to mention the students and part-time workers at fast food restaurants.

I make no apologies....I'm a capitalist and have no interest in pulling others up from the mire.

I recall you mentioning on another thread your experience with distortion and illusion in flight.....a somatogravic event. I am sure that was traumatic and frankly, I have absolutely no desire to share the experience.

I have however asked other aviators both commercial and private including an acrobatic expert whether this is "common". Perhaps they prevaricated but they said "no".

[UpperDeck]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

UpperDeck,

You clearly haven’t kept up with the actual story and in doing so are propagating a narrative that is only partially correct.

 

You clearly didn’t listen to this.  Yes I get it’s long.

In summary our old wages from pre bankruptcy, inflation adjusted to today, and comparing across the border are the same numbers.  Comparing across the border is meant to show that getting our old wages back is not unreasonable.

The narrative Air Canada wants is we are being unreasonable by looking across the border without mentioning we have never recovered from our bankruptcy losses.  Our Final Offer selection losses in 2011.

 

 

 

Turbo....I do not and would not pretend to know all of the nuances in current negotiations. What I do understand is that Air Canada is not sitting on a horde of money generated from the backs of pilots. 

Wage levels? A Delta friend with not that many years is "earning" over $400,000/yr. To me? Too much BUT Delta is making money 

Someone "near and dear" to me just did 3 HND flights ( YYZ based)....75 hours. Plus 17 hours commuting to and from work. Plus of course all of the extra hours resulting from delays; no gates; off-ramp operations...etc etc. You know the drill. And she's cabin crew. And 25 years ago, I paid a 35 hour a week (9-5) legal assistant more than that loyal and devoted AC employee earns today. And she earns every penny.

Not to mention that my "near and dear" seems to be particularly susceptible to those invading pathogens that have her constantly hacking, coughing and sneezing. I don't think that legal assistant ever needed a day off for sickness.

[Turbofan]

50 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....I do not and would not pretend to know all of the nuances in current negotiations. What I do understand is that Air Canada is not sitting on a horde of money generated from the backs of pilots. 

Wage levels? A Delta friend with not that many years is "earning" over $400,000/yr. To me? Too much BUT Delta is making money 

Someone "near and dear" to me just did 3 HND flights ( YYZ based)....75 hours. Plus 17 hours commuting to and from work. Plus of course all of the extra hours resulting from delays; no gates; off-ramp operations...etc etc. You know the drill. And she's cabin 

50 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....I do not and would not pretend to know all of the nuances in current negotiations. What I do understand is that Air Canada is not sitting on a horde of money generated from the backs of pilots. 

Wage levels? A Delta friend with not that many years is "earning" over $400,000/yr. To me? Too much BUT Delta is making money 

 

That was quite the deflection.  
 

Air Canada’s operating margin is similar to Delta.  You just propagated another piece of misinformation.

Air Canada pays about half the going rate of other legacy airlines including those in the US and Europe.

If you think it is unreasonable for us to recover from our bankruptcy losses in 2003 and then our government interference losses in 2011. My question then becomes.  
 

Why do you think AC pilots are worth so much less today than they were 20 years ago? Yet all other pilots are worth the same as 20 years ago?
 

What is it about Air Canada pilots that singles us out for lower value?  I mean we keep hearing it.  
 

¨You're just a Canadian`

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

By definition, unions serve the best interests of the "average" and protect the under-achiever. Those who excel and who are desirous of advancing the interests of their employer are frowned upon....there can be no individual "lets" on contractual terms.

I'm not sure what union you are referring to or imagining but the "average" pilot must successfully pass multiple exams and demonstrations of skills and technical knowledge every year.  The average pilot flies the airplane to the destination according to assigned flying.  The average train engineer moves the trains.  Perhaps you're thinking about municipal workers sleeping in their trucks behind the strip mall when they should be filling potholes?  There is no ability to shirk work or under-achieve as a pilot or train engineer.

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

Labour groups advocated for increased minimum wages in California. Ask how many "mom&pop" operations have suffered as a result of their advocacy. Not to mention the students and part-time workers at fast food restaurants.

I make no apologies....I'm a capitalist and have no interest in pulling others up from the mire.

Surely you are not comparing minimum wage fast food workers with pilots or rail engineers?  The discussion about the value of increasing minimum wage is an interesting one but has no relevance here.

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

I recall you mentioning on another thread your experience with distortion and illusion in flight.....a somatogravic event. I am sure that was traumatic and frankly, I have absolutely no desire to share the experience.

I have however asked other aviators both commercial and private including an acrobatic expert whether this is "common". Perhaps they prevaricated but they said "no".

I suspect you've been served the "non-pilot" talking points as pilots tend to underplay the reality, even to friends.  The problem is that it's impossible to describe without coming off as if you're trying to be dramatic and solicit admiration.  I only mention here because your comments seem to be in the area of "piloting is nothing special".  

 

 

[Turbofan]

44 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

 

Someone "near and dear" to me just did 3 HND flights ( YYZ based)....75 hours. Plus 17 hours commuting to and from work. Plus of course all of the extra hours resulting from delays; no gates; off-ramp operations...etc etc. You know the drill. And she's cabin crew. And 25 years ago, I paid a 35 hour a week (9-5) legal assistant more than that loyal and devoted AC employee earns today. And she earns every penny.

 

Actually I have a rethink on my above post.  Instead of answering my question.
 

How about you go tell that wonderful wife why she is worth less than 20 years ago.  Then send back pictures

All kidding aside.  It was not just AC pilots that gave.  Everyone gives in bankruptcy.  The company has recovered.  It is now time for the employees, including your wife, to recover.

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

 

I make no apologies....I'm a capitalist and have no interest in pulling others up from the mire.

 

Seeker,

This comment tells you all you really need to know about where Upperdeck is coming from.

I am not saying it in a negative manner by any means either.  The world needs entrepreneurs and the world needs labor.

The tug and pull between the two is healthy.  It is what developed the middle class.  
 

Carl Marx thought Capitalism would never work because it would just result in the same old problem.  Rich land barons and peasants.

What he didn’t see coming was unions.  In fact unions in a capitalist economy?  Think about it.  Does it even make sense? 
 

 

 

 

[UpperDeck]

Seeker....

I readily concede my opinion that "piloting is nothing special". I feel the same way about the practice of medicine; engineering; lawyering....you name it.

I believe that one should engage in an occupation that above all things gives them pleasure. I would much rather work for joy than to generate maximum income. Of course....if you can get both ...

I recently read an interesting commentary written by a pilot less than complimentary of certain fellow pilots. He noted the number of those pilots who were over-joyed to come to the end of their pairing ....thankful not to see a cockpit until compelled by the calendar. He compared those to others of his ilk who couldn't wait to get home; shower and change; and, climb into their Cessna or the like for a few hours of recreational flying.

He wrote that given the opportunity, he would always choose to hire that pilot who craved the sheer pleasure of piloting an aircraft.

I suspect you get more pleasure from preaching to the choir than discussing the generalities of unionization so I'll quietly withdraw.

Bon chance!

 

[UpperDeck]

14 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Actually I have a rethink on my above post.  Instead of answering my question.
 

How about you go tell that wonderful wife why she is worth less than 20 years ago.  Then send back pictures

All kidding aside.  It was not just AC pilots that gave.  Everyone gives in bankruptcy.  The company has recovered.  It is now time for the employees, including your wife, to recover.

Turbo.....thank you for the amiable tone of your posts. Many, many years ago, Delta FA's were making over $65,000 a year. Canadian FA's made a LOT less. And that was the way it was. Period.

My wife's "worth" is not defined by her wage. Frankly, I think she is a GREAT flight attendant.....a real asset to AC....and I am told by many of her fellow workers that my positive opinion is warranted.

She is working because she enjoys her job the negatives I described notwithstanding.

I honestly feel badly for those flight attendants who struggle to make ends meet..and there are many of them who don't have the luxury of choosing to work.

The company makes foolish decisions...think of A-1 priority passes. Employee groups demand foolish concessions...think of B-1 priority passes.

All I would wish for anyone is that they awaken looking forward to the day ahead and pack up their stuff at the end of the day with regret!!

 

[Turbofan]

6 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Seeker....

I readily concede my opinion that "piloting is nothing special". I feel the same way about the practice of medicine; engineering; lawyering....you name it.

I believe that one should engage in an occupation that above all things gives them pleasure. I would much rather work for joy than to generate maximum income. Of course....if you can get both ...

I recently read an interesting commentary written by a pilot less than complimentary of certain fellow pilots. He noted the number of those pilots who were over-joyed to come to the end of their pairing ....thankful not to see a cockpit until compelled by the calendar. He compared those to others of his ilk who couldn't wait to get home; shower and change; and, climb into their Cessna or the like for a few hours of recreational flying.

He wrote that given the opportunity, he would always choose to hire that pilot who craved the sheer pleasure of piloting an aircraft.

I suspect you get more pleasure from preaching to the choir than discussing the generalities of unionization so I'll quietly withdraw.

Bon chance!

 

I love my job.  It’s a privilege to get to do a job you love.  Most people don’t get that.  One of the best things I like about my job is it can’t go home with you.

Am I excited to go home?  Of course I am.  Am I excited not to see a hotel room for a bit?  YES!  Every job has its negative.

But my family is more important to me than my job.

That makes me a bad person?  There are pilots out there, probably lawyers too, who only identify as their job or profession.  They tend to look down on others who have different priorities.

 

By the way you didn’t answer my question.  My question and the resulting discussion is exactly what is happening at the table with AC at the moment.

¨So why do you think we are worth so much less than 20 years ago?¨

 

[Turbofan]

8 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo.....thank you for the amiable tone of your posts. Many, many years ago, Delta FA's were making over $65,000 a year. Canadian FA's made a LOT less. And that was the way it was. Period.

My wife's "worth" is not defined by her wage. Frankly, I think she is a GREAT flight attendant.....a real asset to AC....and I am told by many of her fellow workers that my positive opinion is warranted.

She is working because she enjoys her job the negatives I described notwithstanding.

I honestly feel badly for those flight attendants who struggle to make ends meet..and there are many of them who don't have the luxury of choosing to work.

The company makes foolish decisions...think of A-1 priority passes. Employee groups demand foolish concessions...think of B-1 priority passes.

All I would wish for anyone is that they awaken looking forward to the day ahead and pack up their stuff at the end of the day with regret!!

 

Okay.  Great answer.

 

Enjoy you evening 

[Seeker]

21 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

I suspect you get more pleasure from preaching to the choir than discussing the generalities of unionization so I'll quietly withdraw.

No, please don't (quietly withdraw).  I value these opportunities to test my foil as I don't get many.  Perhaps I came across too strongly - I enjoy the debate.

[Seeker]

 

 

Click the pic below and a another page full of photos will load.  Two thousand pilots at the four bases including pilots from Westjet, Transat, Jazz, Delta, United and others.

 

 

[Turbofan]

FROM THE CHAIR: Negotiations Update
August 29, 2024

In 1872, the Toronto Typographical Union took a stand against their employer (The Toronto Globe) who was demanding 10+ hour workdays. At a time when strikes were illegal, these brave workers stood together and demonstrated against their employer. That important strike in our country’s history, secured a 9-hour workday, and ultimately changed the course of the labour movement in Canada.

In the wake of our historic nationwide picket, I felt that same power of collective action from you.

Workers drive their companies, and unions give power to their workers – empowering us with a voice and influence to affect things that are important to us. This power is not intended to exploit our employers. Much the opposite, this voice, through our union, neutralizes the power imbalance that is inherently present.

I am so proud of Air Canada pilots. As I said in the nationwide picket, I recently asked for two things of this pilot group. You delivered the strongest possible message on both. This is power – the power to change our workplace. We need to use it responsibly to neutralize the power imbalance our employer has been exploiting.

With that, I would like to provide an update on our negotiations. On Monday night before our picket, the Negotiating Committee made a comprehensive counter proposal to management. Following our nationwide picket on Tuesday, I was asked to join the negotiating table in downtown Toronto. I was surprised by this call because as MEC Chair, I would not normally arrive at the negotiations table until a deal is imminent.

Was it possible that your message of unity that morning was well-received and finally it was time to bargain the hard stuff? NO. Management stated they refuse to provide a counterproposal to our most recent offer. In fact, they believe our positions are too unreasonable, even after your Negotiating Committee has made moves based on your survey data in a real attempt to reach an agreement. Instead, management expects us to re-propose a counterproposal before they engage any further. We will not do so. I have taken a hard pass on their ultimatum and sent the Negotiating Committee home, which concluded the session. As I said in my speech, management is fighting hard to keep their bankruptcy era contract. There are no further dates scheduled at this time.

While your Negotiating Committee stands ready to negotiate with our employer, at present, it is clear that Air Canada does not wish to negotiate. Their actions at the table disrespect your Negotiating Committee, your MEC, and ultimately you. Moreover, the message I received from management is they are still under the belief that your union does not speak for you. The hubris and disdainful nature of this management approach knows no bounds, and it is exactly the reason we have not reached a deal yet.

I know this news is distressing, as we now face the reality of a 21-day cooling off period and a potential strike or lockout.

Since stress can be at the forefront of our minds, I commit to you that I will keep you updated. I would also take this opportunity to remind you of the resources we have available through our Pilot Assistance Committee, even the Company’s Employee Assistance Program.

We must be unbreakable in our resolve to protect our profession. We must never forget that our work is our power.

First Officer Charlene Hudy
Air Canada MEC Chair

[Turbofan]

From Air Canada.

 

MONTREAL, Aug. 27, 2024 /CNW/ - Air Canada today issued the following update in its ongoing contract negotiations with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA)

Air Canada's intention remains to reach a negotiated settlement with its pilots, one that recognizes their professionalism and contributions to the airline. During the talks, there has been significant progress and the three-week cooling off period gives the parties more than sufficient time to address any outstanding issues. Air Canada is fully committed to bargaining meaningfully throughout the period. 

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, Turbofan said:

....the three-week cooling off period gives the parties more than sufficient time to address any outstanding issues. Air Canada is fully committed to bargaining meaningfully throughout the period. 

Hey, good news! 

Oh, wait, maybe they're not serious and are just making happy noises for the public?

[Turbofan]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/strike-looms-canada-unwilling-wade-into-air-canada-pilot-dispute-source-says-2024-08-30/

 

As strike looms, Canada unwilling to wade into Air Canada pilot dispute, source says

[FA@AC]

Aside from the headline, the article only says that the government is "reluctant" to force pilots back to work and that it doesn't want to be trigger-happy.  That's only what one would expect them to be saying at this stage.

Edited August 30 by FA@AC

[Turbofan]

We are aware.

However I do believe they are reluctant to pull the bill 107 thing twice in a row.  But that isn't  a sure thing.

They just spent the last week in Winnipeg doing damage control at a union conference.

They will look really bad if they act in the same way again.

[Turbofan]

Do you remember John Gradek?  Ex Air Canada management.

https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/expert-potential-strike-air-canada-pilots-359068

You have to consider the Government knows AC will lean on government intervention for all of its contracts coming up if they intervene too early.

It's what happened in 2011.  If AC gets even a sniff that government won't allow a shutdown.  They won't bargain with anyone

[FA@AC]

2 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Do you remember John Gradek?  Ex Air Canada management.

I wonder if he's ex-management because he believes that if AC were grounded there'd be plenty of capacity in place for Canadians who needed to fly.  He sounds clueless.

The government will do what it thinks is in its own best interests.  They might figure that most ALPA members plan to vote Conservative anyway and that die-hard union people are already in the NDP camp.  My sense is that the NDP doesn't want an election now any more than the Liberals do.

 

[FA@AC]

14 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

You have to consider the Government knows AC will lean on government intervention for all of its contracts coming up if they intervene too early.

It's what happened in 2011.  If AC gets even a sniff that government won't allow a shutdown.  They won't bargain with anyone

Oh, I get all of that.  Nobody is expecting government to intervene early.  Whether they intervene on the eve of a strike or very shortly after one begins are what is up for debate to my mind.

[Turbofan]

31 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

Oh, I get all of that.  Nobody is expecting government to intervene early.  Whether they intervene on the eve of a strike or very shortly after one begins are what is up for debate to my mind.

It would be illegal to intervened in advance.  Did you not notice the Government gave CN at least 8 hours of being on strike?

The question has always been how long until intervention after the strike.

This isn't 2011.  AC never skipped a beat.  They never even wound down the operation because of how far in advance Harper intervened.

This time even with quick intervention.

3-4 days to wind down the airline.  A 1 day strike. A day or two for the CIRB to answer. A week at least to recover.  Probably more like two.  Being forced back to work will mean no back to work protocol agreement. That will make restart harder.

Even relatively quick intervention will still be hugely impactful for weeks.  Even if it happened at 12:01am. 

Then will they get the pilots back doing overtime and rowing in the same direction.  I'm sure you have noticed all the cancelled flights.  How happy will pilots be while waiting for Arbitration?

What about the arbitrator?  They don't make big moves. AC needs better pay for new hires.  How does an arbitrator give massive raises (percentage wise) to people not yet working here, but next to nothing to tenured pilots?  And if the arbitrator does?  How do you think that will go over.

Arbitrated settlements are usually 2-3 years.  By the time we get to arbitration we will be nearly a year and half after an expired contract.  So very shortly there after we will start coming at them again.

Sound like a good plan?  Regardless of what AC says they need labor stability.

You speak like you think we have no leverage.

You must also believe you have no leverage.  That's unfortunate. You have more than you think