Electric vehicles

[Seeker]

The following is an independent commenter on the worldwide auto industry.  He can be a little difficult to listen to since he's Australian (accent) and uses a lot of idiom and slang but the content is excellent.  Great analysis and high level view of the societal, government and industry implications of various decisions in the EV industry.  The following regards EVs and is worth the 20 minutes.  I guess I should mention that it's NSFW due to a very few bits of profanity (very few, but they are there).

 

[Malcolm]

Consumer Reports: Electric vehicles less reliable, on average, than conventional cars and trucks (techxplore.com)

Consumer Reports: Electric vehicles less reliable, on average, than conventional cars and trucks© Provided by The Canadian Press

DETROIT (AP) — Electric vehicles have proved far less reliable, on average, than gasoline-powered cars, trucks and SUVs, according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than did vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines.

Consumer Reports said EV owners most frequently reported troubles with battery and charging systems as well as flaws in how the vehicles’ body panels and interior parts fit together. The magazine and website noted that EV manufacturers are still learning to construct completely new power systems, and it suggested that as they do, the overall reliability of electric vehicles should improve.

“This story is really one of growing pains,” said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. “It's a story of just working out the bugs and the kinks of new technology.”

Still, Consumer Reports noted that lingering concerns about reliability will likely add to the issues that give many buyers pause when considering a switch to the new technology, joining concerns about higher costs, too few charging stations and long charging times.

The growth of electric vehicle sales has slowed sharply since last year. In June 2022, EV sales were growing about 90% year over year. By June of this year the 12-month growth rate had slowed to about 50%, and automakers have become increasingly fearful that the pace will weaken further.

Reflecting that concern, about 3,900 U.S. auto dealers this week signed a letter to President Joe Biden, asking him to rethink what the dealers called unrealistic fuel economy and emissions requirements that could require electric vehicles to reach 67% of total U.S. vehicle sales by 2032.

Consumer enthusiasm for EVs, their letter warned, has stalled.

“They are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships, even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives and generous government incentives,” the letter said.

The Consumer Reports survey also concluded that plug-in hybrids, which can travel on battery power before a gas-electric powertrain kicks in, are more problem-prone than fully electric vehicles. Plug-ins, Fisher pointed out, contain two separate and complex power systems in which glitches can arise. He also noted that brands that over time have proved less reliable, in general, such as Jeep and Volvo, have started mass-producing plug-in hybrids.

But tried-and-true integrated gas-electric hybrid systems are more reliable than gasoline vehicles, largely because they have been in use for about a quarter-century and the bugs have mostly been worked out, Fisher said.

Consumer Reports derived its survey data from subscribers who owned EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years and compared them with other vehicle types. In calculating a vehicle’s average problem rate, the organization assigned extra weight to serious problems such as battery or engine failures.

EVs from the 2021 and 2022 model years overall had more than twice the problem rates of internal combustion vehicles. The rates were more closely aligned in the 2023 model year: Those EVs had only 21% more problems than gasoline vehicles, Fisher said.

The narrower gap in problems between EVs and combustion vehicles in the 2023 model year, Fisher said, suggested that the reliability of EVs, in general, is improving. Still, he noted, newer vehicles tend to have lower problem rates that rise as they age.

Among the EV owners who have had problems with their vehicles is Michael Coram of Lockport, New York, near Buffalo. In July, intent on reducing his commuting costs, Coram bought a 2023 Chevrolet Bolt electric SUV, attracted by its sporty handling. Coram, 44, a heating and air conditioning technician, said he ran into one annoying problem: On a chilly day in mid-November, his Bolt wouldn't shift into drive.

Eventually, after Coram had turned the car on and off 10 or 12 times, the problem fixed itself, and he hasn't experienced it since. Other owners on a Bolt social media forum told Coram that he might have shifted into drive before the SUV's computer had finished its startup sequence.

“It kind of is a bit too much for the computer to handle,” he said.

Now, Coram waits for all of the dashboard lights to go out before pushing the drive button. He said his dealer told him that mechanics will check the Bolt when a loaner car is available for him.

 

In 2021, General Motors recalled its popular electric Bolt from the 2017 through 2022 model years to replace the batteries because of manufacturing defects that could cause fires. Fisher said Bolt owners had to limit how much they charged the batteries and had to park them outdoors until replacement batteries became available. Repairs were still being made this year, Fisher said, causing some Bolt owners to report problems in the Consumer Reports survey.

In addition, owners of Hyundai's Ioniq 5 EV reported battery and charging issues related to a charging control computer, which, in some cases, caused the vehicles to stall.

Rivian, an upstart manufacturer of electric pickup trucks and SUVs, had trouble getting body panels to line up correctly and with broken interior parts, Fisher said.

Tesla, the EV sales leader, which now has years of experience building vehicles, showed improvement in reliability, Fisher said. This was largely because a high proportion of Tesla's sales involve the relatively small and less-expensive Model Y SUV and Model 3 cars. Those are simpler to build and lack the glitch-prone new technology that Telsa offers in its more expensive vehicles, the Models S and X.

Tesla ranked 14th out of 30 automotive brands in the 2023 survey, up from 19th in 2022.

Lexus, Toyota's luxury brand, was the most reliable in the survey, followed by Toyota, Mini, Acura and Honda. The five lowest-ranking brands were Jeep, Volkswagen, Rivian, Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler.

The most reliable segment of the market was compact cars, followed by sportscars, small pickups, midsize and large cars, luxury midsize and large cars. Electric cars, electric SUVs, full-size pickups, midsize pickups, and electric pickups had the worst reliability.

Consumer Reports says its survey of subscribers, representing 330,000 vehicles, took place last spring and summer. It asked owners of vehicles from the 2000 through 2023 model years, with a smattering of 2024 models, about problems they had experienced in the previous 12 months.

[deicer]

[Malcolm]

• 
  

InsideEVs Global

That’s why Consumer Reports put 22 zero-emissions cars to the test by driving them with a full battery at a constant speed of 70 miles per hour until they shut down

All the cars tested by CR were purchased anonymously from local dealerships and vehicle manufacturers. The outside temperature was between 70 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit, the tire pressure was set to factory specifications, the vehicles were preconditioned inside a garage, and the climate control was set to 72 degrees.

The biggest outlier was the Ford F-150 Lightning with the Extended Range battery, which ran out of battery after 270 miles, 50 miles less than the EPA estimate, followed by the Lucid Air Touring and Tesla Model S Long Range. In the case of the Air, it missed its 384-mile estimate by 40 miles, while the Model S fell 39 miles short of its 405-mile advertised range.

Reports Drove 22 EVs Until They Died. Nearly Half Fell Short Of Their EPA Ranges

Here’s the complete list of EVs that were range-tested by CR:

Model	EPA Rating	CR Tested Range
Audi Q4 50 E-Tron Premium Plus	241 Miles	226 Miles
BMW i4 M50	271 Miles	318 Miles
BMW iX xDrive50	324 Miles	370 Miles
Ford F-150 Lightning Lariat ER	320 Miles	270 Miles
Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium AWD ER	270 Miles	299 Miles
Genesis Electrified GV70 Advanced	236 Miles	220 Miles
Genesis GV60 Advanced	248 Miles	251 Miles
Hyundai Ioniq 5 SEL AWD	256 Miles	267 Miles
Hyundai Ioniq 6 SEL AWD	270 Miles	265 Miles
Kia EV6 Wind AWD	274 Miles	277 Miles
Kia Niro EV Wind	253 Miles	239 Miles
Lexus RZ 450e Premium	220 Miles	202 Miles
Lucid Air Touring	384 Miles	344 Miles
Mercedes-Benz EQE 350 4Matic	260 Miles	332 Miles
Mercedes-Benz EQE SUV 350 4Matic	253 Miles	284 Miles
Mercedes-Benz EQS 580 4Matic	340 Miles	380 Miles
Mercedes-Benz EQS SUV 450 4Matic	285 Miles	314 Miles
Nissan Ariya Platinum+ AWD	257 Miles	253 Miles
Rivian R1T	314 Miles	344 Miles
Subaru Solterra Limited	222 Miles	210 Miles
Tesla Model S Long Range	405 Miles	366 Miles
Volkswagen ID.4 Pro S AWD	240 Miles	253 Miles

 

[Malcolm]

we are told this will happen, mostly by those with garages or parking pads but:

How do you charge an EV without a garage or driveway? | Watch (msn.com)

[Seeker]

17 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

we are told this will happen, mostly by those with garages or parking pads but:

How do you charge an EV without a garage or driveway? | Watch (msn.com)

You have to be some sort of immense moron if you buy an EV without a garage or driveway.  Actually, even if you have a garage or driveway.

[Malcolm]

14 hours ago, Seeker said:

You have to be some sort of immense moron if you buy an EV without a garage or driveway.  Actually, even if you have a garage or driveway.

Careful, those same people are also eligible to drive.   

[Jaydee]

This is a Tesla model Y battery. It takes up all of the space under the passenger compartment of the car.

To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be 
    extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made 
    as a byproduct of the processing of copper 
    and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material 
    to obtain for a battery and the most 
    expensive.) 
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore

You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel 
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt

To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic 
-- 112 pounds of graphite

The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.

Finally you get a “zero emissions” car.

Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor for getting the minerals in Africa is done by children! If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!

BTW, this 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries is:

Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)

It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average). Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replaced and you lose all the gains you made in those three years.

The truth is far better than the fiction we are all being told !

[Malcolm]

Tesla recalls over 2 million vehicles in the U.S. due to defective system

The Tesla company logo shines off the rear deck of an unsold 2020 Model X at a Tesla dealership, April 26, 2020, in Littleton, Colo. (AP Photo/David Zalubowski, File)

Tom Krisher

 

The Associated Press

Staff

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Updated Dec. 13, 2023 7:39 a.m. MST

Published Dec. 13, 2023 4:29 a.m. MST

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DETROIT - 

Tesla is recalling nearly all vehicles sold in the U.S., more than 2 million, to update software and fix a defective system that's supposed to ensure drivers are paying attention when using Autopilot.

Documents posted Wednesday by U.S. safety regulators say the update will increase warnings and alerts to drivers and even limit the areas where basic versions of Autopilot can operate.

•  Headlines from the automobile industry

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The recall comes after a two-year investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration into a series of crashes that happened while the Autopilot partially automated driving system was in use. Some were deadly.

The agency says its investigation found Autopilot's method of making sure that drivers are paying attention can be inadequate and can lead to "foreseeable misuse of the system."

The added controls and alerts will "further encourage the driver to adhere to their continuous driving responsibility," the documents said.

Safety experts said while the recall is a good step, it still makes the driver responsible and doesn't fix the underlying problem that Tesla's automated systems have trouble spotting and stopping for obstacles in their path.

The recall covers models Y, S, 3 and X produced between Oct. 5, 2012, and Dec. 7 of this year. The update was to be sent to certain affected vehicles on Tuesday, with the rest getting it later.

Autopilot includes features called Autosteer and Traffic Aware Cruise Control, with Autosteer intended for use on limited-access freeways when it's not operating with a more sophisticated feature called Autosteer on City Streets.

The software update will limit where Autosteer can be used. "If the driver attempts to engage Autosteer when conditions are not met for engagement, the feature will alert the driver it is unavailable through visual and audible alerts, and Autosteer will not engage," the recall documents said.

Depending on a Tesla's hardware, the added controls include "increasing prominence" of visual alerts, simplifying how Autosteer is turned on and off, and additional checks on whether Autosteer is being used outside of controlled access roads and when approaching traffic control devices. A driver could be suspended from using Autosteer if they repeatedly fail "to demonstrate continuous and sustained driving responsibility," the documents say.

According to recall documents, agency investigators met with Tesla starting in October to explain "tentative conclusions" about the fixing the monitoring system. Tesla did not concur with NHTSA's analysis but agreed to the recall on Dec. 5 in an effort to resolve the investigation.

Auto safety advocates for years have been calling for stronger regulation of the driver monitoring system, which mainly detects whether a driver's hands are on the steering wheel. They have called for cameras to make sure a driver is paying attention, which are used by other automakers with similar systems.

Philip Koopman, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at Carnegie Mellon University who studies autonomous vehicle safety, called the software update a compromise that doesn't address a lack of night vision cameras to watch drivers' eyes, as well as Teslas failing to spot and stop for obstacles.

"The compromise is disappointing because it does not fix the problem that the older cars do not have adequate hardware for driver monitoring," Koopman said.

Koopman and Michael Brooks, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety, contend that crashing into emergency vehicles is a safety defect that isn't addressed. "It's not digging at the root of what the investigation is looking at," Brooks said. "It's not answering the question of why are Teslas on Autopilot not detecting and responding to emergency activity?"

Koopman said NHTSA apparently decided that the software change was the most it could get from the company, "and the benefits of doing this now outweigh the costs of spending another year wrangling with Tesla."

In its statement Wednesday, NHTSA said the investigation remains open "as we monitor the efficacy of Tesla's remedies and continue to work with the automaker to ensure the highest level of safety."

Autopilot can steer, accelerate and brake automatically in its lane, but is a driver-assist system and cannot drive itself despite its name. Independent tests have found that the monitoring system is easy to fool, so much that drivers have been caught while driving drunk or even sitting in the back seat.

In its defect report filed with the safety agency, Tesla said Autopilot's controls "may not be sufficient to prevent driver misuse."

A message was left early Wednesday seeking further comment from the Austin, Texas, company.

Tesla says on its website that Autopilot and a more sophisticated Full Self Driving system are meant to help drivers who have to be ready to intervene at all times. Full Self-driving is being tested by Tesla owners on public roads.

In a statement posted Monday on X, formerly Twitter, Tesla said safety is stronger when Autopilot is engaged.

NHTSA has dispatched investigators to 35 Tesla crashes since 2016 in which the agency suspects the vehicles were running on an automated system. At least 17 people have been killed.

The investigations are part of a larger probe by the NHTSA into multiple instances of Teslas using Autopilot crashing into emergency vehicles. NHTSA has become more aggressive in pursuing safety problems with Teslas, including a recall of Full Self Driving software.

In May, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, whose department includes NHTSA, said Tesla shouldn't be calling the system Autopilot because it can't drive itself.

[Malcolm]

Knewz

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Massive 'White Gold' Discovery: $540B Worth of Rare Element Found at Bottom of California Lake

Story by David Wetzel  • 1d

 

Scientists have discovered a "white gold" treasure at the bottom of a giant lake in Southern California.

While researching how much lithium was at the bottom of the Salton Sea, the largest lake in California, scientists found $540 billion worth of the element, Knewz.com has learned.

The Salton Sea is the largest lake in California. By: MEGA© Knewz (CA)

Scientists were amazed when they made the discovery during what was expected to be a basic study funded by the United States Department of Energy.

In fact, scientists say they believe there is about 18 million tons of lithium — also known as white gold because of its white sand-like appearance — at the bottom of the large body of water, according to The Independent's Indy100.com.

Scientists previously had discovered that there was 4 million tons of lithium in the lake, but now it's believed an amount quadrupling that number is present. The 4 million tons were found through a drilling process.An aerial view of the Salton Sea. By: MEGA© Knewz (CA)

"This is one of the largest lithium brine deposits in the world. This could make the United States completely self-sufficient in lithium and stop importing it through China," Michael McKibben, a geochemistry professor at the University and one of 22 authors of the study, told Indy100.com.

Imperial County, where the lake is located, had previously begun referring to itself as "Lithium Valley" because of the amount of lithium sitting underneath, according to SFGATE.com.

Scientists say they found $540 billion worth of lithium in the Salton Sea. By: MEGA© Knewz (CA)

Los Angeles Times journalist Sammy Roth explained to KJZZ-FM radio the potential impacts of the lithium there.

"They found that there's potentially enough lithium down there to supply batteries for 382 million electric vehicles, which is more, more vehicles than there are on the road in the United States today. So, if we could get all that lithium, that'd be huge," Roth said.

However, getting to all the lithium would present obstacles.The Salton Sea is located in Riverside and Imperial counties in Southern California. By: MEGA© Knewz (CA)

It would require "geothermal production wells to extract the lithium-rich brine from thousands of feet below the earth’s surface, and once the lithium is dissolved from the brine, the liquid is pumped back underground," according to SFGATE.com.

The process would also present challenges to the 180,000 people living there.

The drilling, which will require a large amount of water, could put the water supply in jeopardy.

However, the positive effects could outweigh the negative ones.

Imperial County stated in a March news release that lithium extraction would be taxed, creating new revenue streams there.

“We need to be able to dream about this County and fully envision what it would look like if it were better for everyone and people want to come and join us,” Sara Griffen, executive director of the Imperial Valley Food Bank, in a March 2023 public comment about proposed lithium taxes, according to SFGATE.com.

“We have not been able to dream like that, because we could never afford it.”

[Malcolm]

FIRST READING: How record-high immigration could be hurting Canadian productivity

 

Bank of Canada Governor David Dodge pictured in 2008.© Provided by National Post

First Reading is a daily newsletter keeping you posted on the travails of Canadian politicos, all curated by the National Post’s own Tristin Hopper. To get an early version sent directly to your inbox, sign up here.

TOP STORY

Canada’s recent turn towards record-high immigration is already having measurable impacts on housing prices and employment numbers – but in a recent report, former Bank of Canada Governor David Dodge suggested that it is also eroding the country’s competitiveness and long-term productivity.

“In the last years, we have altered an economic immigration system that stood as a model for the world,” declares a Dec. 11 report co-written by Dodge for the law firm Bennett Jones. But w here Canada once oversaw a carefully managed immigration system that prioritized “highly skilled workers,” the report said Ottawa has now “ramped up significantly” the intake of foreign students and other low-skilled temporary workers.

“Poor administration and the abuse of some programs are damaging the credibility of the system for immigrants and Canadians,” warned the report, which also cautioned that the “large and rising inflow of workers with lower skills” risks depressing wages.

Most notably, Dodge and his co-author argue that by constantly flooding the Canadian market with cheap and often temporary labour, Ottawa is propping up “un-competitive” businesses — and ultimately doing long-term damage to Canadian productivity.

“The last thing we want is a bunch of low-productivity businesses hanging on because we provide them cheap labour. That’s not the way we’re going to raise national income,” Dodge told the Globe and Mail in a Monday interview.

Much of the new Bennett Jones report was taken up by the issue of falling Canadian productivity – a phenomenon that many economists have warned in recent months could be leading Canada into decades of stagnant or shrinking living standards.

The OECD, for one, has forecast that Canada is set to be the world’s worst-performing advanced economy until at least 2060. In July, a report out of TD Economics warned that Canada was lagging behind the rest of the developed world in “standard of living performance” and that “little turnaround appears to be on the horizon.”

The Bennett Jones report warned that if Canada doesn’t alter its current course, the country is destined to enter an era of “reduced consumption” and “no increase in perceived living standards.”

The indicator driving all these dire warnings is GDP per capita; the average amount of economic output being generated per Canadian.

GDP per capita has been in decline since the 1980s, but has really started to sink since the end of the COVID-19 pandemic. Simply put, the average Canadian isn’t as productive as he used to be.

The blame for this is usually placed on the fact that — for several reasons — the Canadian private sector is slacking off on innovation.

As noted by TD, Canada has disproportionately poured its investment dollars into real estate rather than areas better able to generate wealth, such as startups or research. “Over the last 20 years, Canadian (research and development) investment has been in perpetual decline, while all other G7 countries have seen increases,” it read.

The Canadian economy is also disproportionately composed of giant oligopolies shielded from outside competition — such as telecoms, airlines and grocery chains.

In October, the Competition Bureau released a report finding that Canada’s “competitive intensity” has been dropping for the last 20 years, with the result that “many industries have become less dynamic.”

“Competition is the strongest incentive for innovation and productivity growth. We need more of it,“  read the Bennett Jones report. “Even in domains where Canada may claim or aspire to have an advantage, including energy and AI, it is struggling to punch at its weight.”

While Canada has always been a high-immigration country relative to the rest of the world, in just the last two years the Trudeau government has dialled up the country’s immigration intake to an unprecedented degree. In 2022, for instance, Canada’s record-breaking intake of one million newcomers was roughly on par with the United States, despite the U.S. being 10 times larger.

 

As outlined in the Trudeau government’s recent Fall Economic Statement, this has been done in an overt bid to boost overall GDP growth — even though per-capita GDP has been in decline since at least mid-2022.

Meanwhile, the massive influx of newcomers is having noticeable effects on Canada’s existing housing shortage as well as overall employment numbers.

In just two months — from August to September – Canada added slightly more than 100,000 jobs, according to a Statistics Canada labour force survey.

However, given that high immigration was adding about 50,000 new workers into the economy each month, the agency said that the unemployment rate remained completely unchanged.

[Malcolm]

Transport Canada says Tesla recall will affect roughly 193,000 cars in Canada

 

CTV National News: Tesla's massive recall

Updated Dec. 13, 2023 3:46 p.m. MST

Published Dec. 13, 2023 1:51 p.m. MST

 

Tesla's recall over its autopilot function will affect about 193,000 vehicles in Canada.

Transport Canada says Tesla will provide an over-the-air software update to fix the advanced driver assistance features.

•  Top headlines on electric vehicles, and all the latest automotive news

Transport Canada says the recall will be added to its database of vehicles with safety recalls.

 

Tesla has recalled more than two million cars across its model lineup, which were produced between Oct. 5, 2012 and Dec. 7 of this year, after a lengthy investigation by the U.S. National Highway Safety Administration.

U.S. safety regulators had investigated a series of crashes involving Tesla's autopilot feature, some of which were fatal.

Tesla did not responded to a request for comment.

This report by The Canadian Press was first published Dec. 13, 2023.

[deicer]

Unlike in aviation, automobile drivers need to be connected to the driving environment at all times, imo.

They should put a moratorium on self driving vehicles until the technology is improved greatly.

[Malcolm]

And the beat goes on.....

Driverless car firm Cruise to cut 900 jobs

14th December 2023, 11:45 GMT-7

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Reuters

A Cruise car on the street in San Francisco

Cruise, the self-driving vehicle business which is majority owned by General Motors, is to cut 900 jobs.

The announcement comes as safety officials investigate the firm after reports of injuries to pedestrians.

Cruise pulled all of its US vehicles from testing this autumn after California halted its driverless testing permit.

The company's chief executive Kyle Vogt and co-founder Dan Kan have also both resigned in recent weeks.

On Thursday, Cruise confirmed the job cuts amounted to 24% of its workforce and were "primarily in commercial operations and related corporate functions".

"These changes reflect our decision to focus on more deliberate commercialization plans with safety as our North star," a statement said.

The start-up added that it was supporting staff with "strong severance and benefits packages".

 

Last month, General Motors said it would cut costs at Cruise, which lost more than $700m in the third quarter, taking total losses to more than $8bn since 2016, according to news agency Reuters.

"GM supports the difficult employment decisions made by Cruise," a GM spokesman said.

• Driverless cars investigated in US after accidents
• Tesla recalls two million cars in US over safety concerns

In October, the California Department of Motor Vehicles ordered Cruise to remove its driverless cars from the state's roads and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced an investigation into its fleet.

The moves came after two accidents involving pedestrians, both which involved people crossing after the cars' traffic lights had turned green.

In one incident from August 2023, the self-driving car hit someone at 1.4mph, while in the other incident, from October, the driverless car dragged a woman who had been thrown into its path after getting hit by another car, which was being driven by a person.

The October report said the driverless car "braked aggressively" but was not able to stop in time. Both the incidents happened at night.

 

Cruise has previously said its safety record "continues to outperform comparable human drivers".

Cruise is not the only driverless car company facing safety questions.

Tesla is recalling more than two million cars after the US regulator found its driver assistance system, Autopilot, was partly defective.

It follows a two-year investigation into crashes which occurred when the technology was in use.

Driverless cars

[Jaydee]

 

[deicer]

[deicer]

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires?slide=4

You’re Wrong About EV Fires

Gas- and diesel-powered vehicles catch fire way more often than EVs, but you wouldn’t know that from the headlines.

Far More Non-EVs Catch Fire

According to National Fire Incident Reporting System data collected by the U.S. Fire Administration and analyzed by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), an average of 117,370 passenger vehicles caught fire every year between 2013 and 2017 (the most recent data available). That works out to 321 car fires per day, or a car fire every five minutes. How many of those car fires are EVs?

The fact is, no one knows for sure. No American government agency we're aware of breaks out car fires by drivetrain, nor do they granularly break out car fires by vehicle age. There is no database that tells you how many EVs catch fire each year or what percentage of EVs catch fire. Similarly, no database tells you how many cars running on gas or diesel catch on fire. The NFPA analysis even goes out of its way to mention the lack of data on EVs and makes no claims about the frequency or likelihood of EV fires.

The Swedish authorities, however, are keeping track. The Myndigheten för Samhällsskydd och Beredskap (MSB, or Authority for Social Protection and Preparedness) recently released the first report of its kind specifically tracking EV fires in Sweden and comparing them to combustion-powered vehicle fires and the results are clear: EVs are much less likely to catch fire.

Per the MSB, just 29 EVs and 52 hybrids caught fire in Sweden between 2018 and 2022. On average, 16 vehicles powered by batteries (EVs and hybrids combined) catch fire there each year. On average, 3,400 passenger vehicles catch fire each year in Sweden, meaning EVs account for 0.4 percent of all passenger vehicle fires there annually. Hybrids account for 1.5 percent, for a combined total of 1.9 percent of all passenger vehicle fires.

Put another way, gas- and diesel-powered cars account for 98.1 percent of all passenger vehicle fires in Sweden each year on average.

Combustion-Powered Vehicles Are 29 Times More Likely To Catch Fire

According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.

The Problem Isn’t Getting Worse

With more and more EVs, hybrids, and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) being sold every year, it's reasonable to wonder whether that rate of fires in those cars will increase. The MSB study found that after a rise in fires from 2019 to 2020, the rate is basically unchanged over the past 3 years with 20 EV and hybrid fires in 2020, 24 fires in 2021, and 23 fires in 2022. In that same time period, the MSB reports the number of EVs in Sweden has more than doubled to nearly 611,000. Prior to 2020, fewer EVs and hybrids caught fire with 8 in 2018 and 6 in 2019.

Not All EVs Are Made The Same

Note these numbers include all hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and EVs and not just ones using lithium-ion batteries. Up until 2021, the vast majority of hybrids used nickel-metal hydride batteries, which don't burn the same way lithium-ion batteries do.

The MSB also notes that not all of the fires included in its numbers involved the battery pack. In some cases, other parts of the vehicle burned but the fire was put out before it reached the batteries.

We should also point out there are some EVs and hybrids sold in Sweden that are not sold in the U.S. and some that are sold here that aren't sold in Sweden, so the fire risk may differ slightly in our two countries

Do the Math

The simple fact is we've had gas- and diesel-powered vehicles for more than 120 years, and they've been catching fire since day one. We're used to it. We've accepted it as a fact of life and we've done our best to make them safer while devising better ways to put them out. EVs seem new and different, but EVs have existed for nearly as long—they just haven't been this popular in a century. EV sales are now growing so fast they'll be just as unremarkable as every other car on the road sooner rather than later. So, too, will be EV fires.

[Seeker]

2 hours ago, deicer said:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires?slide=4

You’re Wrong About EV Fires

Gas- and diesel-powered vehicles catch fire way more often than EVs, but you wouldn’t know that from the headlines.

 

As I understand it (don't have enough interest to research it)  is that the problem is not how prevalent EV fires are but how incredibly hard they are to extinguish when they do happen.  And, of course, while trying to extinguish them the fire is far more likely to spread and cause damage around it.

Also, gasoline vehicles rarely catch on fire when unattended and not in operation such as when parked in your attached garage overnight while sitting in the garage recharging in the middle of the night the EV is in it's high-threat window  (again, as I understand it).

[deicer]

1 hour ago, Seeker said:

As I understand it (don't have enough interest to research it)  is that the problem is not how prevalent EV fires are but how incredibly hard they are to extinguish when they do happen.  And, of course, while trying to extinguish them the fire is far more likely to spread and cause damage around it.

Also, gasoline vehicles rarely catch on fire when unattended and not in operation such as when parked in your attached garage overnight while sitting in the garage recharging in the middle of the night the EV is in it's high-threat window  (again, as I understand it).

While you may have a personal concern about it, it comes down to the odds of having a vehicle fire.  

Firefighters are still in the learning curve with dealing with EV fires, so that will improve with time also.

Just like they say driving to the airport is way more dangerous than taking your flight.

Do you believe the social media, or the scientific numbers?

https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs

A majority of animosity toward electric vehicles, like many sad situations in this world, comes from a simple lack of understanding and knowledge on the subject. The average consumer still believes they need at least 500 miles of range to commute to their job eight miles away, and the thought of having to sit for 18–25 minutes at a fast charger feels like torture compared to a 3–5 minute gas station visit, right?

These are common excuses we as EV advocates encounter in daily conversations with people. We also hear that EVs will burn people’s houses down when they’re charging, yet people continue to buy cars that will actually kill you if you run them without proper ventilation.

EV fires are a genuine issue of concern, like any risk for drivers, and should be treated as such. GM has had its hands full the past year as the result of some Bolt EVs and EUVs catching fire, and they join a list of other EV automakers who have seen similar issues. However, those numbers pale in comparison to the fire risk of gasoline vehicles, and there is data to prove it.

New study shows EV fires are far less common than in gas vehicles.

According to findings pointed out by AutoInsuranceEZ, vehicles that operate using gasoline are tenfold more likely to catch fire compared to EVs.

The study compiled and compared data from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS), and government recall data from Recalls.gov to put together the charts you see above and below.

From that data, you will notice that far more fire recalls were made in 2020 for gasoline models, which also include hybrids in which vehicle batteries garner 100% of their energy directly from gasoline combustion in the engine.

Admittedly, 2021 tells a different recall story as Chevy alone recalled over 140,000 Bolt EVs and EUVs. That being said, the recall was implemented following just 16 vehicle fires resulting in only a few injuries. Still, those EV fires occurred, providing argument fuel to those already hesitant to adapt to electrification.

Source: AutoinsuranceEZ.com

So, let’s talk about the vehicle fires themselves. As you can see from the car fire data compiled from the NTSB, gasoline is a lot more combustable. Who knew? If you combine gasoline cars with hybrids (also require gasoline), you’re looking at over 215,000 fires compared to 52 from EVs.

According to a recent report from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), vehicle fires accounted for 15% of the 1.4 million fires that took place in the US in 2020, and those fires contributed to 18% of civilian deaths and 11% of the civilian injuries. EV fires? About 0.02% of the US

The first chart shows that both EV recalls in 2020 were due to fires as the result of battery pack issues. When driving any vehicle, there is a risk of fire, especially following an accident. However, it’s safe to say that the issues that can lead to fire inside and outside of an accident in a gas vehicle far outweigh any risk of fire from battery chemistry. EVs generally don’t tend to explode either.

No matter which vehicle you choose to drive, the number one goal is safety for you, your passengers, and those other souls on the road with you. If you have range anxiety, can’t charge at home, or simply think electric vehicles are too expensive, that’s your prerogative and we implore you to find further educational resources through Electrek and beyond.

However, the argument that EVs catching fire exists as a veritable threat holds no water, so let’s drop it once and for all and save that H2O for the fire departments. They clearly need it.

[deicer]

 

[Seeker]

Yeah, I'm not convinced.  The video and articles you've posted sound an awful lot like the sell job we've been getting to buy EVs in the first place.

OK, maybe ICE vehicles have a higher incidence of fires but no details provided on the intensity or ultimate final state of the vehicles after the fire.  I know for a fact that a small or even larger gasoline fire can be readily extinguished with a hand fire extinguisher and certainly by the fire dept with a big splash of water.  I also don't like the fact that an EV is at it's most dangerous when unattended, charging at night while an ICE is at it's safest when shutoff and parked.

I have a lawn mower, wood chipper, wood splitter, two outboards, a string trimmer, a chainsaw, a power washer, a motorcycle and a generator - all with gasoline engines.  I have no problem leaving them for weeks or months and never give a moments thought to them spontaneously bursting into flames but I make sure all my lithium battery devices are off the charger before walking to the mailbox.  That's a slight exaggeration for dramatic effect but would certainly never leave them plugged in when leaving the house for the day.

The following a good video on the subject and I think it's quite fair - he discusses the fact the EV fires are low probability and that they are "safe" but also gives some discussion of the severity of these fires when they do happen.

 

[Malcolm]

 

 

 

Global News

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Canada lays out road map for electric vehicle key 2035 targets

 

A Tesla vehicle receives a charge at a charging station, Thursday, Sept. 28, 2023, in Woodstock, Ga.© Mike Stewart / Associated Press

Ottawa has unveiled new regulations for all electric vehicles (EVs) in Canada.

At a press conference on Tuesday, Environment and Climate Change Minister Steven Guilbeault announced new standards that he says will provide more affordable EVs and more charging stations.

The federal government had previously announced that all vehicles sold in the country must emit zero emissions by 2035. Tuesday’s announcement clarified the schedule for the regulations, who is affected by them, and how the carmakers can comply.

The federal government is now mapping out the path for how it wants that to happen, now requiring 20 per cent of all cars, SUVs, crossovers and light-duty pickups sold by carmakers to emit zero emissions by 2026. By 2030 60 per cent of all cars sold must be zero emissions.

Emergency vehicles like firetrucks and ambulances will be exempt.

Carmakers will earn, lose and bank credits, worth $20,000 for every vehicle thqt has an all-electric range of at least 80 kilometres, for meeting, exceeding and failing to meet sales targets.

Companies will be forced to pay one credit for every vehicle not sold under their target. They can also begin earning credits right away for selling EVs before 2026 and for building fast-charging stations.

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Companies will only be able to offset 10 per cent of their total compliance.

The government will place a cap on each model year on the amount of company’s plug-in hybrids. Plug-ins with an electric range of at least 80 kilometres will be worth the same as battery-electric or fuel cell vehicles.

Plug-ins with electric ranges between 35 and 79 kilometres can earn full or partial credits, depending on the model year and seating capacity.

The government’s strategy also states regulations are designed to bring more EVs into the market, making them more affordable for lower-income Canadians.

A spokesperson said they expect EVs to reach similar prices as conventional vehicles by the late 2020s — and to become cheaper over the lifespan of a vehicle.

This story is developing and will be updated.

[Jaydee]

20 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Canada lays out road map for electric vehicle key 2035 targets

Anything for a sound bite in search of votes.

Reality 101:

Its easy to make promises you know you won’t  have to keep, especially so when you know full well there isn’t a snowballs chance in heil that you will be in power.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Jaydee

[mo32a]

How are those billion trees Trudeau promised to plant coming along?

[Malcolm]

• Canada needs hundreds of thousands of public EV charging ports. Who is going to build them? | CBC News Loaded

Canada

Canada needs hundreds of thousands of public EV charging ports. Who is going to build them?

Infrastructure required to meet zero-emission vehicle targets by 2035, experts say

Katie Nicholson, Carly Thomas · CBC News · Posted: Dec 20, 2023 2:00 AM MST | Last Updated: 6 hours ago

Debbie Nightingale holds one of her goats in front of an electric vehicle charging station she installed last year in her farm’s parking lot in Newtonville, Ont., northeast of Toronto, where charging ports are hard to find. She received a federal tourism recovery grant to help with the cost. (Carly Thomas/CBC)

 

Most of the people who come to visit Debbie Nightingale's Ontario farm are lured in by a chance to get up close and personal with her herd of friendly goats. But some visit for more practical reasons: to charge their electric vehicles.

"We have people who come on a regular basis because they know we have these," Nightingale said, gesturing to the two-port EV-charging station she installed last year with the help of a federal tourism recovery grant.

As part of the federal government's net-zero targets for the future, it is aiming for all new light-duty car and passenger truck sales to be zero emission by 2035, which will require a nationwide network of public charging ports.

"We think sustainability is really important, and when we looked around, we didn't see many other EV chargers in the area. So we thought it would be great to have one locally," Nightingale said.

She pulled out a map to demonstrate her point. Nightingale's farm is in Newtonville, roughly 100 kilometres northeast of Toronto. Around it, her map reveals only a handful of far-flung public EV charging stations.

Ian Everdell, who lives nearby in Port Hope, said he appreciates the new addition to the goat farm after he and his wife bought their second EV.

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"We specifically got one that we knew we could get into and out of Toronto on a full charge, because it is still a challenge sometimes to find a charger," he said.

"When you do find one, sometimes there's a vehicle already plugged in there. There's 18 different apps that you might have to use. They don't always work."

Canada lags on charging infrastructure

The lack of chargers across the country is a big concern for Brian Kingston, president and CEO of the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association.

"We currently do not have enough charging infrastructure to support the EVs that are coming onto the roads today," he said from his Ottawa office.

Brian Kingston, president and CEO of the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers’ Association, says it's the federal government's job to ensure that Canada has the EV charging infrastructure it needs to meet zero-emission vehicle targets by 2035. (Mathieu Theriault/CBC)

More concerning for Kingston is the massive expansion of public charging infrastructure needed to meet the 2035 zero-emission vehicle targets of what could be upwards of 12 million electric vehicles on the roads.

Natural Resources Canada estimates that depending on the availability of home charging, Canada will need between 442,000 and 469,000 public charging ports by 2035. It says that as of Dec. 1, there are currently 10,425 charging stations and 25,246 charging ports based on data from the Electric Charging and Alternative Fuelling Station Locator.

In August, an internal report found that fewer than one in five federally funded chargers were operational.

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"There's a big gap between what we currently have and what is required," Kingston said. "And if we're going to hit these very aggressive sales targets, we need to see a massive build-out of charging infrastructure."

Kingston said he sees that as the federal government's job.

"The primary responsibility for this infrastructure right now does lie with the federal government, and the reason for that is they are regulating the sale of these vehicles and they're establishing these targets," he said.

'This is 100 per cent an industry thing'

But Josipa Petrunic, president and CEO of the non-profit Canadian Urban Transit Research & Innovation Consortium, said she doesn't see it that way.

"Truthfully the taxpayer has built enough," she said. "This is 100 per cent an industry thing, and I really don't have a lot of patience for the argument — in particular from the auto sector these days — in the past couple of years about the government should do it."

Petrunic said the auto sector should be leading the charge because it has all of the data on where charging ports are needed — and where they will be needed in the future.

Josipa Petrunic, president and CEO of the Canadian Urban Transit Research & Innovation Consortium, says the auto sector, not Ottawa, should be taking the lead on infrastructure because it has all of the data on where charging ports are needed now and in the future. (Anis Heydari/CBC)

"They're the ones that need to start innovating to basically sell a car with the service of charging, just like Tesla has done," she said.

However, Petrunic said, she does see a larger federal role in building infrastructure in northern, Indigenous and rural communities.

"That will have to be subsidized by the state. And that makes sense," she said.

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There is currently no single body that is implementing public charging infrastructure or deciding where chargers go nationwide. Instead, chargers are being funded through a combination of federal, provincial, territorial and municipal governments, as well as the private sector, mostly in large urban areas.

Kingston said he would welcome a more organized collaboration with the federal government.

"I think we need to establish a commission that effectively sets that target, measures its progress and delivers on it, because we cannot achieve the government sales targets if we don't have the corresponding infrastructure. And right now, those two things are completely disconnected — and that's a real challenge."

WATCH | How to charge an EV without a garage or driveway:

 

How do you charge an EV without a garage or driveway?

 

14 days ago

Duration2:50

Windsor is looking at ways to add more EV chargers across the city, including options for people without a driveway or garage. The CBC's Chris Ensing looks at what's working in other cities ahead of the transition to electric vehicles.

Chargers should be required in new builds: expert

Canada will also significantly scale up the availability of charging infrastructure at condo buildings and multi-dwelling homes to support the needs of EVs.

Retrofitting condos and apartment buildings to be EV friendly can cost anywhere from hundreds of dollars to thousands if the transformers feeding the complex need to be upgraded, said Olivier Trescases, a professor at the University of Toronto and a Canada Research Chair in Power Electronic Converters.

"It really comes down to whether the building actually has the power capacity, right? And so worst case is if everyone is charging at the same time while air-conditioning units are running and so on," he said.

Olivier Trescases, a Canada Research Chair in Power Electronic Converters, is developing new EV charging technologies from his University of Toronto lab. (Katie Nicholson/CBC)

"For new builds, it makes a lot of sense to impose requirements that every new parking space has at least a rough-in for a charger," Trescases said.

"Then when the time comes, you can actually install the charger and plug it into that receptacle because the technology is changing."

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Across the country, there's a smorgasbord of incentives and regulations for new builds to include varying numbers of EV charging stations. The federal government is providing some funding to install EV chargers in multi-dwelling builds. It's also trying to make changes to the Canadian Electrical Code so that new residential buildings will be EV-ready.

One massive condo development in Toronto is betting on the marketability of a net-zero future. The Residences at Central Park in the city's northeast will combine residential and retail structures and green spaces and have more than 1,500 EV charging stations — one for every parking spot in the community.

Ashling Evans is general manager of real estate at Amexon Development Corporation, which is building a new residential complex in Toronto that will have more than 1,500 EV charging stations — one for every parking spot. (Mehrdad Nazarahari/CBC)

"Obviously, Toronto doesn't have as many EV charging stations as they want," said Ashling Evans, general manager of real estate at Amexon Development Corporation, the company behind Central Park. "Some condos that are being developed right now ... aren't actually putting in 100 per cent; they're doing just the minimum."

Evans said this development took the long view of what the needs will be in the future, even though it cost an extra $10 million to $12 million to implement the vision of an EV charger for every spot.

"It's a win-win for the environment. It also entices people that purchase the unit here to buy an EV vehicle, which is what we want people to do," she said.

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Encouraging people to be more green is also one of the reasons Debbie Nightingale installed the chargers on her farm.

Underground cables connect her charging station to her restaurant. People park, plug in, see the animals and have lunch at her café — all while their vehicles recharge.

"I don't ever see it as a huge income producer. I do see it as something that will pay for itself as it goes along. But that's fine with me because ... the intent was just to have something to be supportive of the environment," she said.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Katie Nicholson

Senior Reporter

Katie Nicholson is a multi-platform RTDNA and Canadian Screen Award winning investigative journalist. She’s often on the ground covering everything from wildfires, floods and hurricanes, to papal funerals and the US. Katie has also reported extensively on intimate partner violence, sexual harassment, MMIWG, and child welfare. She is based in Toronto. Have a story idea? Email: Katie.Nicholson@cbc.ca