Number 145

[J.O.]

Highest Ranking Canadian Soldier Dies in Car Bombing

[Kip Powick]

I wonder what they call this 'mission'.....? Are the Canadians participating in a "war"? or is it a "battle" or perhaps an "armed conflict."

Not sure of the exact numbers but I would hazard a guess that 75-80% of our troops have been killed by IEDs........and the vast majority did not die in a shooting conflict.............

As J.O. said...what a waste.......kids for cannon fodder.

Canada's Vietnam

[Guest woxof]

Probably end at around 160 total as we have an exit approximate date. All of these losses are tragic. About 3 days worth of WWI casualties which supposedly made a nation.

No Vietnam at all which is just a silly emotional statement based on nothingness. Before you start typing in response back...ask an unbiased historian...guaranteed that the Vietnam thing will be tossed aside as rubbish.

Afghanistan...fighting the good fight. Finishing the mission.

[Kip Powick]

Probably end at around 160 total as we have an exit approximate date. All of these losses are tragic. About 3 days worth of WWI casualties which supposedly made a nation.

No Vietnam at all which is just a silly emotional statement based on nothingness.

Afghanistan...fighting the good fight. Finishing the mission.

[Guest woxof]

Actually, your statement of Canada's Vietnam and your childish last post shows that you are in the lead by a long way in your immature game. And that from someone claiming to have served. I wonder how it would feel for some soldier on the front to see the line that put you in the lead.

Hopefully, they only see mine.

"You have our support"

P.S. Obviously the thought of an unbiased historian thing(which I noticed you didn't quote)didn't go far. What a surprise.

[chockalicious]

I am still waiting for anyone to tell what victory looks like in this war.

Apparently any type of nuance in thought is not able in some posters as not supporting the war does NOT mean you do not support the troops.

[Guest woxof]

Is there such a thing as an "unbiased historian"?

I'm sure there are plenty who are reasonably so.

Someone wondered what the definition of victory is. Obviously there could be various opinions but i was told by a fellow recently when asked that question what seems like a well thought out answer..."the achievable goal is to make sure it's not a safe haven for terrorists, to make sure that the Afghan people are able to determine their own fate."

I agree with the first part. While the second is laudable, it may not be realistic in the near term.

[CD]

In answer to your earlier question, Kip, there does not appear to be a "war", "battle" or "armed conflict." Although I suppose "battles" could be said to occur during the "security and stability operations"...

Whatever it's called, Canada's involvement will end in 2011, while the ISAF mission will most likely never be finished...

CF members have to conduct often dangerous counter- insurgency operations to carry out their mission, which is to support the Afghan government in establishing peace and securing its territory, as well as to continue training Afghan military personnel.

Is “declaration of war” an antiquated expression?

In accordance with relevant Security Council Resolutions, ISAF assists the Afghan government in the establishment of a secure and stable environment. To this end, ISAF personnel, together with the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF), conduct security and stability operations throughout the country. ISAF personnel are also directly involved in the training and development of the Afghan National Army (ANA) and the Afghan National Police (ANP) via the NATO Training Mission Afghanistan (NTM-A).

...

While not technically a UN force, ISAF has a peace-enforcement mandate under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. Twelve UN Security Council Resolutions relate to ISAF, namely: 1386, 1413, 1444, 1510, 1563, 1623, 1707, 1776, 1833, 1817, 1890 and 1917 (on 22 March 2010).

NATO’s role in Afghanistan

[Kip Powick]

Thanks CD.....as you have stated and as the majority of Canadians know......it is all clear as mud....(what are security and stabilization operations...what page of the manual is that on and what are the parameters?)

This whole Canadian involvement was a bad idea from the get-go and was merely Canadian CIVILIAN POLITICIANS polishing apples for other governments.

Anyone who feels that this issue will be end in a peaceful way and all the population of Afghanistan will join hands and sing Kumbaya is out of touch with reality..... and history.

I take strong exception to this arrogant line......

Afghanistan...fighting the good fight. Finishing the mission.

And yes WOXOF, I served, 28 years and yes, WOXOF I was shot at, albeit I was departing in an aircraft, and just out of curiosity how many repats have you attended, they all happen in my home town and whenever I am in town...I am there, no matter what the weather.... have you ever stood on an overpass in all types of weather to show your support?

As I stated in many of my posts on this forum I support the troops...I DO NOT support their "mission" in any way . Young kids dieing for nothing and if you can prove otherwise...you go for it................t but I am not going to continue wasting my time rebutting your self-serving and sanctimonious attitude concerning this issue.

[Guest woxof]

And yes WOXOF, I served, 28 years and yes, WOXOF I was shot at, albeit I was departing in an aircraft, and just out of curiosity how many repats have you attended, they all happen in my home town and whenever I am in town...I am there, no matter what the weather.... have you ever stood on an overpass in all types of weather to show your support?

As I stated in many of my posts on this forum I support the troops...I DO NOT support their "mission" in any way . Young kids dieing for nothing and if you can prove otherwise...you go for it................t but I am not going to continue wasting my time rebutting your self-serving and sanctimonious attitude concerning this issue.

And what sort of attitude is the posting of grade two type responses about playing stupid? Is that the response expected of an officer who served 28 years? Now it seems to be hinted at that the number of "repats" you attend somehow makes an opinion about a mission more or less right. Or because you were shot at,it make all the difference in the world as if there are not people who have been shot at in the past who are quite supportive of this mission.

You take strong exception with my earlier statement and I take strong exception with this "Canada's Vietnam" line.

[J.O.]

Kip, may I recommend the "Ignore" feature. It's a wonderful tool.

[Kip Powick]

Kip, may I recommend the "Ignore" feature. It's a wonderful tool.

Yes indeed...already done...

Hope all is going well......there....

Had to haul out the Port engine....big problem.....looks like the ETD will be delayed a week or so...

such is life

[boestar]

Kip:

Unfortunately I miss this Repat as I was in Ottawa. A few guys from my club were in attendace at the Toronto end and I was told the turnout was huge. Good to see there are still supporters out there.

[Kip Powick]

Kip:

Unfortunately I miss this Repat as I was in Ottawa. A few guys from my club were in attendace at the Toronto end and I was told the turnout was huge. Good to see there are still supporters out there.

Big crowd at the last one and good weather

Hopefully, if and when we meet, it won't be at another of these.......but.......

[Hadji Ramjet]

Is there such a thing as an "unbiased historian"?

SLA Marshall, perhaps?

Afghanistan...fighting the good fight. Finishing the mission.

We're NOT "finishing the mission," insofar as finishing what we began is concerned. We're just handing over to another Coalition Partner (likely the UK) and leaving. "Finishing" implies completion as originally intended or expected and we're not doing that.

I am still waiting for anyone to tell what victory looks like in this war.

When I can get a chick in a bikini to serve me a beer and ham sandwich in my left hand, Afghanistan will be free. Failing that, suggest that you refer to doctrinal concepts embodied in "the three-block war" and McChrystal's latest iteration of the COIN FM.

...and was merely Canadian CIVILIAN POLITICIANS polishing apples...

Are you suggesting the Military should NOT be subordinate to the Politicians who are elected to run this country? Is there such a thing as a NON-CIVILIAN politican who should be able to decide in which conflicts we participate?

I served, 28 years and yes, WOXOF I was shot at, albeit I was departing in an aircraft, and just out of curiosity how many repats have you attended, they all happen in my home town and whenever I am in town...I am there, no matter what the weather.... have you ever stood on an overpass in all types of weather to show your support?

Is that to imply some sort of greater insight into or understanding of the "mission" through attending repat ceremonies? Would it logically follow then that you can't know bugger-all about Bosnia if you weren't present when any of the 25 coffins came home from that "mission?" Perhaps that mission wasn't popular enough or advertised enough. Following that theme though, if standing on an overpass is relevant, does it follow that someone who has stood on overpasses more times than you've stood on the ramp, they must have greater insight than you? Finally, if Trenton wasn't close to home, how much effort would you have taken? Not a lot of LFWA people in the photos at Trenton, but then Edmonton is a bit of a distance.

Clearly though, having never been to a repat ceremony in Trenton or taken fire in a transport on departure, I don't know anything about this "mission," or at least not as much as someone who has experienced the previous.

...not supporting the war does NOT mean you do not support the troops.

There's an interesting dichotomy for discussion: if you DO support the troops but DON"T support the mission, do you support the troops who ARE DOING the mission? Or only those who AREN'T DOING the mission, or maybe only when they're IN the mission but not DOING the mission (sitting around Timmy's maybe?) Or you support the troops as long as they're not actually doing anything that involves the primary mission of the combat arms? Is that hypocritical support, or merely conditional? How do you reconcile NOT supporting the mission with supporting those who ARE doing the mission; especially those who DO support the mission while they're DOING it? Jack Layton-esque sliderule of support? I would submit that your support is a very fickle thing, and will exist only as long as it's the popular thing to do. As soon as that changes, pffftt....

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill

[Moon The Loon]

How about addressing my question regarding your credentials. We all know Kips but yours remain to be established. You note I say credentials not identity........

You mean Mr Woxof, The Sound of Silence, don't you Malcolm?

[J.O.]

Hadji;

You are obviously intelligent and well spoken, but do you think you could make your points without the condescending tone? I know that tone is sometimes hard to discern in the written word, but yours seems pretty clear from where I sit and I just don't think it's necessary.

J.O.

[chockalicious]

Hi Hadji

You are never at a loss for verbosity on here. I see what your definition of victory and would submit that will never happen. As far as looking up the references you pointed me towards why don't you give me a brief recap of what "doctrinal concepts embodied in "the three-block war" and McChrystal's latest iteration of the COIN FM."

I know we live in a world of sound bites and a quick capsulation is not always best but how come we do not here any articulation from the Candaian govt on what victory looks like? Can you reference a Canadian military leader who has spoke on the subject?

Your point about "supporting the troops" is just semmantic BS and there is no dichotomy about it.

I support the flesh and blood people that are fighting this mission, however misguided and wrong headed the mission may be.

[Kip Powick]

Hi Hadji

You are never at a loss for verbosity on here. I see what your definition of victory and would submit that will never happen. As far as looking up the references you pointed me towards why don't you give me a brief recap of what "doctrinal concepts embodied in "the three-block war" and McChrystal's latest iteration of the COIN FM."

I know we live in a world of sound bites and a quick capsulation is not always best but how come we do not here any articulation from the Candaian govt on what victory looks like? Can you reference a Canadian military leader who has spoke on the subject?

Your point about "supporting the troops" is just semmantic BS and there is no dichotomy about it.

I support the flesh and blood people that are fighting this mission, however misguided and wrong headed the mission may be.

+1000

[Guest woxof]

Thanks Hadji for finally a refreshingly intelligent response, instead of the usual useless insults and now credential questions, as if your opinion on this should be based on what your career path has been. You are of course correct and I stand corrected, we are not finishing the mission, just our commitment to it. As we should and as we will.

Is that to imply some sort of greater insight into or understanding of the "mission" through attending repat ceremonies? Would it logically follow then that you can't know bugger-all about Bosnia if you weren't present when any of the 25 coffins came home from that "mission?" Perhaps that mission wasn't popular enough or advertised enough. Following that theme though, if standing on an overpass is relevant, does it follow that someone who has stood on overpasses more times than you've stood on the ramp, they must have greater insight than you? Finally, if Trenton wasn't close to home, how much effort would you have taken? Not a lot of LFWA people in the photos at Trenton, but then Edmonton is a bit of a distance.

Clearly though, having never been to a repat ceremony in Trenton or taken fire in a transport on departure, I don't know anything about this "mission," or at least not as much as someone who has experienced the previous.

+10,000