Guest rattler Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Really ??????? National Post Article So I guess the story is that the press is "Naughty Word" at our new Government. The only people who count are the voters and it seems that they are quite happy with the new government, at least so the polls show (Not from a weekend tabloid Regarding the flag issue itself. Yesterday the Canadian Legion, respected retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie and Cliff Chadderton, CEO of the War Amps and chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations all issued statements backing the Conservative government's flag decision. Link to the article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Really ??????? National Post Article Couldn't find it with a quick scan but I guess you have more time than I do. Read the article and compare it to the Star and Globe and Mail then tell me politics has nothing to do with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yul07 Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Kip is right. What we are under going is an erosion of the personal freedoms that we have long enjoyed when they conflict with the goals of the Mr. Harper and his circle of of advisors. Sorry apparently he calls all the shots. The image of flag draped coffins coming off the A-310 is a reminder to Canadians that these heroes died for their country and are being accorded the dignity and respect that they deserve. At a time the CAF is enjoying support like never before, being accused of hiding their dead for political purposes is just the kind PR they don't need. The Conservatives are being somewhat dishonest for blaming the Liberals for allowing the flags to fly at half mast. What they are not saying, it that it was a conservative motion in the house, supported by the Liberals and the other parties that effected the change. Now that its an embarrassment, they are trying to stick it to the previous government. . Good on the Mayor of Toronto and the Govt of Alberta for not buying in. Now there is talk of banning reporters from the base at Kandahar. Guess what the news will still get covered, Canadian reporters who now live at a cost of 1000 dollars per person a day under the protective envelope of the forces will be on their own. How long before one of these civilians is targeted for kidnapping or beheaded by the jihadists over there. When that Happens Harper and the MOD will have a much bigger public relations disaster on their hands. One that could potentially bring down the government and send Harper to the dust bin of History. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 What we are under going is an erosion of the personal freedoms that we have long enjoyed when they conflict with the goals of the Mr. Harper and his circle of of advisors. Sorry apparently he calls all the shots. What form personal freedom have you lost by not having a frenzy at Trenton? As for calling the shots, have you already forgotton the master Chretien? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 What form personal freedom have you lost by not having a frenzy at Trenton? Why do you think these functions are a "frenzy"? Ever been to one?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Why do you think these functions are a "frenzy"? Ever been to one?? I have never been to witness the returning of Canadian soldiers killed in combat and I suspect neither have you...unless you were around for the Korean War era. The media attention over this loss is much greater than what we have seen over peace-keeping accidents and losses due to operational accidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Man oh man! Those of you who are prepared to fall on your sword to defend Harper's actions on this should listen to yourselves! You sound exactly like the Martin and Chretien supporters of old who had trouble seeing the forest for the trees. I voted for the man (well, his candidate actually), but that doesn't mean I can't criticize his actions when I feel they are wrong. I don't care if his approval rating reaches 99.9%, if he makes a wrong call in my eyes, I'll be prepared to say so. Kip's right, this is purely a political move designed to insulate the Canadian public from the bad news. He's treating us like children, and that's every bit as arrogant as Chretien ever was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 I have never been to witness the returning of Canadian soldiers killed in combat and I suspect neither have you If you count the two killed by a roadside bomb in 2003 as killed in combat....then you are wrong. I'm not sure if you know where I live, but in case it slipped by you...I do live in Trenton and still have a lot of AF and Mil friends here and do visit the base quite often. The four that are coming home tonight were in armed combat, true, but my point is that you keep referring to the media's involvement as a "frenzy". As I have previously stated that is not the case in the many arrivals I have participated in as both the bearer of the deceased, and as an escorting officer for the NOK. There is NO FRENZY...and your argument that it is not in the interest of the public, or the NOK to have the media present, has no credible basis....that is my point. This is purely a political move for the many reasions stated by me and others but you don't seem willing to accept that fact.....but that is your right. Liberals, Conservatives, NDP...no matter who was in power, I would be against this autocratic decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 This is purely a political move for the many reasions stated by me and others but you don't seem willing to accept that fact.....but that is your right. Liberals, Conservatives, NDP...no matter who was in power, I would be against this autocratic decision. I guess we can agree to disagree but I am very sceptical of the media. Always have been and always will be I suspect. I did agree that it would be nice to have a single source media coverage of this event which should keep everyone happy in my opinion but many Harper oponents take every action of his Government and oppose it for political reasons. As stated, i believe it would be fundementaly wrong for any Government to give the media full and open access to all of the Governments business. No group could ever operate effectively in this type of coverage IMO. J.O., I'm not falling on my sword to defend Harper just using it against the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 As I have previously stated that is not the case in the many arrivals I have participated in as both the bearer of the deceased, and as an escorting officer for the NOK. There is NO FRENZY...and your argument that it is not in the interest of the public, or the NOK to have the media present, has no credible basis....that is my point. Kip I imagine when you participated as a bearer or an escorting officer the deceased were not as the result of battle and I would imagine the interest of the press was not as great as it is now. I was involved in a funeral in which members of the press were attending and taking pictures of the family, then at the reception, one enterprising journalist gained entrance, posing as a guest and took the opportunity to quiz some family members. Isolated case, perhaps but when you are grieving, you don't need the press around. We will never agree on this but I suspect I can take the counterpoint to your argument regarding "blind" support for the Conservatives (from your point of view) to your "blind" support for the Liberals & NDP (from my point of view). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 Bovine excretement......this an event on a military base. There is a big difference between what happens at a "homecoming" and a funeral. At a military event the NOK have escorting officers and MPs abound... for a reason. Honestly now...have you ever seen a member of the NOK being harassed at a MILITARY event??? I'm not sure what you mean as BLIND support...my opinion is very clear.....NO government has the right to disallow the Press from seeing a "homecoming". Those of you who can not see any political motivation for this decree are not focusing...IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 This is not a partisan issue, rattler. I would speak out against this no matter who enacted it. Even Maj. Gen Lewis McKenzie (ret) has spoken against this action. He rightly stated that the first rule in making a rule is to make a rule you can enforce. The ability to get pictures via ultra long lenses means that the media will get coverage, even if from a distance. He also stated that by refusing to allow the media to provide respectful coverage, as they have always done before, Harper has turned the deaths of these men into a media circus at a time when the nation would prefer to quietly reflect on the sacrifice of these men and their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockyc Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 I'm not sure the Government needs to be involved in every segment of life and death anyway. It just tends to politicize things. I expect the Military have sufficient experience with these things, and more than adequate control over what takes place on Military Bases, to avoid disruption and hurt feelings to the families of their members. Anyway, if a family wanted absolute privacy why couldn't they have it, followed 20 minutes later with additional recognition for other families that felt it was important to them? In other words, let the families have the last say on what they want. Isn't what they would like to see the most important criteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Kip... Right on! It's as political a decision as anything ever could be. It's wrong, that's all. These men died as Canadian soldiers and their homecoming deserves the attention of Canada. It's not an event politicians should have any business hushing. Handyman... I reckon most of us understand your distrust of the media... the only group worthy of more distrust (or should that be less worthy of trust?) are politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Bovine excretement......this an event on a military base. There is a big difference between what happens at a "homecoming" and a funeral. At a military event the NOK have escorting officers and MPs abound... for a reason. Honestly now...have you ever seen a member of the NOK being harassed at a MILITARY event??? I'm not sure what you mean as BLIND support...my opinion is very clear.....NO government has the right to disallow the Press from seeing a "homecoming". Those of you who can not see any political motivation for this decree are not focusing...IMO. Kip, I was reacting to your comment previously on this thread. You are the one who suggested those who did not agree with you were supporting the Conservatives no matter what and further suggested that we were not thinking rationally. Thus my reaction that you were blindly supporting the viewpoints of the Liberals and NDPs. Those that were killed by USAF friendly fire did not suffer a "media feast" and that arrival was open to the media...in all honesty, it would seem that some of you are backing the Harper government because many westerners wanted the Libs out and the Cons in.....and are a bit reluctant to knock our Conservative Government..... instead of thinking this out rationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Latest on the subject, and also a link to comments from those who may be closer to the subject than we are CBC Link MPs, soldiers' families criticize new Tory policy on military deaths -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at 17:28 on April 25, 2006, EST. By JENNIFER DITCHBURN AND ALEXANDER PANETTA OTTAWA (CP) - Relatives of soldiers killed in Afghanistan are reacting with dismay to government changes in the way Canada's war dead are commemorated, changes the defence minister says were made without the input of military families. Flags that fly on Parliament Hill will no longer be lowered to half-mast when a soldier is killed in the line of duty, and the media have been barred from covering the repatriation ceremony for fallen soldiers returning to Canadian soil. Tina Beerenfenger, wife of late Cpl. Robbie Beerenfenger, said she was shocked by the decision. "I feel that these soldiers deserve recognition that the flag should be at half-mast for each and every one of them," said Beerenfenger, whose husband was killed by a roadside bomb near Kabul in 2003. "I know it's not a tradition, but since then they've lowered it and I feel that Canadians all over should know when one of our soldiers fall, and remember them on that day and again on Remembrance Day. The mother of Cpl. Jamie Brendan Murphy, a soldier killed in Afghanistan in 2004, agreed. "I don't think it's right, because they're over there fighting for us and they're losing their lives, and we're not honouring them," said Alice Murphy from Conception Harbour, Nfld. "Honour the soldiers and put the flag at half-mast." The father of one of the soldiers killed in Afghanistan last week, Cpl. Matthew Dinning, wrote Prime Minister Stephen Harper a letter asking him to reconsider the policy change - only two weeks before the tragic death. "My question is simple. For all the support and respect that you say publicly, why do you choose not to fly the flag on Parliament Hill at half mast when one of our soldiers is killed?" Dinning wrote from Wingham, Ont. "I would suggest to you that there is no more important VIP than a Canadian soldier who gave his life in the service of his country." The unprecedented decision to bar public images from Canadian Forces Base Trenton, where bodies of the latest four Afghan casualties arrived Tuesday by military flight, was also criticized by some families. The father of the late Sgt. Marc Leger said the public participation in his son's homecoming in 2002 was something he will cherish forever. "It was a Canadian thing. It was something we wanted to show all Canadians - what the cost of their liberty is," Richard Leger said. "It's still heartwarming to (remember) the people's faces. People were lined up on the 401, in 2002, all the way from Trenton to Toronto. "They wanted to be there. They had to be there. I was told that often. . . and those are the things I carry with me all my life." The Conservatives have explained the change by saying it was the previous Liberal government who defied tradition by lowering the flag on a selective basis. They also say they're protecting the privacy of military families by barring media from filming the arrival of caskets at military bases. "We have set a consistent policy that the previous government did not practise and that consistent policy is that we will lower the flag for all casualties in all wars and all operations on November 11, Remembrance Day, so that everyone will be treated the same, all military casualties will be treated the same," Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor said during a heated question period debate in the Commons. Conservative MPs were divided on the issue. Ontario MP Garth Turner said he's been "besieged" by angry phone calls from constituents about the caskets and the government's new flag policy. He said callers panned the move as disrespectful to the fallen soldiers and to regular Canadians who feel they're being shut out of an event of national mourning. "Right now (the calls are) probably running 30 to 1 (against the government)," Turner said. "There's a great deal of concern, confusion and uncertainty about why the government has adopted the position that it has." But Alberta MP Leon Benoit, whose constituent Cpl. Randy Payne was killed last week, said the family doesn't want coverage of the event. "The greatest concern of the Payne family, the mother and the father, was that there would be swarms of media bothering the children and wife at a time when it's a very personal and great loss, and I think they appreciate that protection," Benoit said. Added caucus colleague MP Myron Thompson: "If they brought my son home from that war in a body bag, I'd shoot the first media that come on site." Yet reporters have neither been allowed near nor attempted to approach family members during repatriation ceremonies in the past. Media have been kept at a respectful distance while cameras roll on the ceremony. Liberal Leader Bill Graham says there's a misconception about what takes place at Trenton and other such ceremonies. "It was always with great respect, they filmed the event so Canadians could know what was going on. That was all they did," Graham said, calling the event a public military ceremony. Nova Scotia MP Bill Casey said he doesn't necessarily disagree with the decision on the flags and access to the repatriation of the bodies, but didn't care for the timing. "I think it would be better to have this discussion at another time. I just think these soldiers are coming back right now, there could be a better time to have the debate on it," Casey said. A debate did rage in the House of Commons. "If it is appropriate to lower the flag here on Parliament Hill every time an unelected senator dies, why is it not appropriate to lower the flag every time one of our soldiers dies serving this country?" asked NDP Leader Jack Layton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 OK, I yield. Let us permanently nail the flag on Parliament Hill at half mast and set up a permanent TV studio at Trenton. There will be a lot more bodies coming home soon and we cannot close the door and go back to protocol again. It appears that the same people that set up road side memorials to traffic accident victims are in the majority in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 Handyman... I reckon most of us understand your distrust of the media... the only group worthy of more distrust (or should that be less worthy of trust?) are politicians. agreed with the possibility of adding lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 25, 2006 Author Share Posted April 25, 2006 Thus my reaction that you were blindly supporting the viewpoints of the Liberals and NDPs. OK..Confused???? I am. Here is my POV.. 1) I do not support any government that bans the media from a "homecoming" ,no matter what party they are. 2) I was suggesting that all the posters that are advocating that Harper is right, are merely supporting the government rather than thinking rationally. Based on the locale of most of these posters, (western Canada) and based on their previous comments concerning the Canadian Government, (other threads), I feel that many are pro-Harper and are supporting his decree, no matter what. 3) Perhaps that is an unfair "assumption" but it looks that way to me. PS..... it might interest you to know that one family wants a private homecoming, the other three feel that the public is being shielded from the reality of the situation and they wish that the media was allowed in. One NOK actually wrote/emailed to Harper to ask for incusion of the media as they felt that not all their relatives could be there for the arrival but it would allow them to see their "grandson, uncle etc " return to Canadian soil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dork Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 I have been at a base during the repatriation of a lost airman and the media tried to create a circus. Fortunately the base had a good plan and stuck to it. The press gang did not get their way Families have no interest in the press at those events, not my family anyways. The press is always looking for and angle to sell their wares....not this time fortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 OK..Confused???? I am. Here is my POV.. 1) I do not support any government that bans the media from a "homecoming" ,no matter what party they are. It appears that you are black or white with this issue. No less than twice have I suggested a compromise but you insist on placing me on the full media ban list. Please answer my question which you previously ignored! What is wrong with having a single media source, or let's say the two majors (CBC and CTV), cover the event and keep the rest out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted April 25, 2006 Share Posted April 25, 2006 .... 2) I was suggesting that all the posters that are advocating that Harper is right, are merely supporting the government rather than thinking rationally. Based on the locale of most of these posters, (western Canada) and based on their previous comments concerning the Canadian Government, (other threads), I feel that many are pro-Harper and are supporting his decree, no matter what. .... I have refrained from stating the opposing view, although I do believe that the media have been lying in wait to finally get something on the new government since the banning of the media scrums outside the cabinet room. This is their made up event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dork Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 "This is their made up event." Correct...just a farce...tempest in a teacup. We could call this press event the "Dawning of the big yawn". Nov 11 is the day to remember our boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted April 26, 2006 Author Share Posted April 26, 2006 handyman Please answer my question which you previously ignored! Not being flippant but where did you frame a question to me that I previously ignored???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 handyman Not being flippant but where did you frame a question to me that I previously ignored???? Couldn't care if your flippant or not but OK then, I guess I didn't ask it in the form of a question but the suggestion was made in dialogue responding to you. This is for you KIP! How would you feel about having access restricted to just CBC and CTV to record live video of the event which has obviously passed and is of little consequence now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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