All or nothing

[wizard]

Sorry Moeman just checking.

[Guest ikfu]

Johnny, you missed the point i think.

I also doubt that it will happen. If it does, that will apply to all airlines. The cost will rise dramatically absorbing any potential wage increases for years.

Licencing will thin the ranks of the flight attendants considerably. The work rules under which flight attendants benefit, yet at times suffer and whine on the same issue depending on the apparent loss/benefit equation, will not be discretionary contractual ones, but laws applying to every aspect of the job, including layover, off duty, duty regs. Medically, I doubt that some of the more senior flight attendants (non-gender specific) will make the cut.

There is little understanding that licencing for flight attendants cuts both ways. While they might be able to demand more, their job is still not portable, nor will the licence be until it is an ICAO requirement. There is a great deal of hassle, and cost involved. Much of their current job flexibility will be gone. Simple things such as maintaining two pair of glasses cost money, including the medicals, checks, etc. There will be no more less than contractual minimum layovers, which AC flight attendants call "illegal" layovers. They are only contractually illegal, not by CARs. They basically get paid to sleep under the current system of that contractual application.

On the job, the possibility of constant scrutiny by potential TC inspectors that could pull their licence, and their livelihood, will be an interesting aspect for them to come to terms with.

[Guest parkerlava]

i know jack

[Guest Gord]

Wow I feel rich, I'm an LAT4, there's only one spot higher than me in the AME ranks and that is a lead position of which there are relatively few. I just did my income tax a few days ago, late I know, due to some health problems with my wife's family that took precedence over the bloody tax man, guess what, my take home pay for last year was $34,000 and change. Sorry Newgirl but no sympathy from the AME's, we have a boatload of training to go through, a lot of information to absorb before we can apply to take TC's exams in order to qualify for an AME license. Not to mention that most of us attended if not a regular college, then a military one or a community college such as BCIT.

That does not make any of us better than you with your grade 12, but it does mean that we spent a lot of time learning our trade before we were even recognised as being fit to take TC's exams.

Sorry dear, not a put down at all, just an update on how the rest of the world lives.

Well exept for those bloody jockeys who everyone knows have the world by the short hairs.

Gord'.

[Guest JazzMonkey]

Jazz FO 5 years service, 12 years in the industry

Net pay last year, $22,000

That's whats wrong with this company

[GTFA]

Well maybe if you kept building your time you could get your "Commercials" and apply at the majors for a "real" job.

Jazz...What's a Jazz????

It's OK Monkey, I know, I know.

GTFA

[buzz]

Jazz FO 5 years service, 12 years in the industry

Net pay last year, $22,000

That's whats wrong with this company

Net pay can include all sorts of deductions, writeoffs, and dodges.

I am familiar with the CRA/Jazz payscales, and F/O5 pays more than $28K gross, which would be about a normal gross (appx) to get $22K net.

Net pay is not an accurate measure - talk gross income and then we're apples to apples.

Not trying to piss into anyones cornflakes, but some of the moaning on here is a little suspect.

[Johnny]

Wow I feel rich, I'm an LAT4, there's only one spot higher than me in the AME ranks and that is a lead position of which there are relatively few. I just did my income tax a few days ago, late I know, due to some health problems with my wife's family that took precedence over the bloody tax man, guess what, my take home pay for last year was $34,000 and change. Sorry Newgirl but no sympathy from the AME's, we have a boatload of training to go through, a lot of information to absorb before we can apply to take TC's exams in order to qualify for an AME license. Not to mention that most of us attended if not a regular college, then a military one or a community college such as BCIT.

That does not make any of us better than you with your grade 12, but it does mean that we spent a lot of time learning our trade before we were even recognised as being fit to take TC's exams.

Sorry dear, not a put down at all, just an update on how the rest of the world lives.

Well exept for those bloody jockeys who everyone knows have the world by the short hairs.

Gord'.

Well Gord;

There are two groups in this Airline that are GROSSLY underpaid.

1. RJ Pilots, in particular the F/O's

2. Our good friends, the AME's.

Wish we could somehow help.

[Guest sputnik]

Well, you could tip!

[Guest ikfu]

Tip:

Plant your potatoes now; it's going to be a short summer. Chop lots of wood; it will be a cold winter.

[Guest DeltaCharlie]

All of you pilots need to pull your head out of the clouds and stop bashing anyone who isn't a pilot.

Remember your aircraft can't fly if its not maintained,baggage checked,cleaned,etc.

Bring it on,Flyboys!

[Guest A340]

All of you pilots need to pull your head out of the clouds and stop bashing anyone who isn't a pilot.

Remember your aircraft can't fly if its not maintained,baggage checked,cleaned,etc.

Bring it on,Flyboys!

This site is known as the pilots b!tch page for a reason.

[Guest sputnik]

ikfu; You sound like my grandmother!

[newgirl]

Ok guys here I am back again but be kind.

I am very serious here so please no nasty posts. I am completely caught off guard by the extent of hatred directed to CAW members. Please tell me what we have done over the past years to inspire such dislike and lack of respect??????

To Clumsy Lover (is it true?) my post read "Yes I am lucky to earn that wage with only a grade 12 certificate"

The only benefits we have left to give are our medical. As I see it , that leaves only monetary reductions. Remember what happened with CP- they gave and gave. Once it starts , it may never end!

To our ACPA and ALPA members, in an emergency situation , you are the ones I want flying my aircraft! There is no question on how well trained you are and I recognize the cost it took you to get there.Also to our Flight Attendants , it's you who I want directing me in an evacuation procedure. There has never been a question on how well you are trained for your jobs. But I do question on the cost we are paying to front end crews on overseas flights, on the cost of per diems and the hours flown per month?

Perhaps only F/A's and Lost Baggage Agts may understand how demoralized I feel after my shift. Sone days, nothing goes as to schedule. After a creeping delay of 5 hours only to have the flight cancel at 2200hrs is deflating. At that time of night we (small base) are left with 2 agents on duty and it takes us 2-3 hours to rebook and accomodate all the passengers. Is anyone happy? NO!! So with all due respect to the Flight crew - you get to leave the s*** behind as you deplane and leave for your hotel. It really is emotionally draining , day after day to be told AC has become a terrible airline and they will never fly us again! What answer can I give them as I know how low we've fallen. That's when I say to myself ,don't complain you're getting a good paycheck to put up with this .

Each department in this airline has it's own job function to fulfill. Some of us are highly trained, some of us are not, but without all of our various skills this airline would not have succeeded in being recognized as a "world class carrier"

It took me 25 years to get to my present wage and I am quite content with it and will live with it even if in the future there are no more raises.

My question is '"to the RJ pilots"are you not able to move up to larger aircraft and in the future make top wages? Yes it may take another 15 years but you will still be making far more than I will. Your flying years before being hired doesn't count in a Union based Company.

I would like to thank all the Captains/FO's who actutally come up to the the depature gate and explain to the passengers why the the flight is cancelled after waiting for 5 hours. As a gate agent it does help . Also we thank the back end crews who have picked up the garbage during the flight as it helps us when the flight is late and enables us to get close to an on time performance. In the smaller bases we do not have "groomers" so the ramp staff come on board to do a "tidy up" after they have unloaded the baggage.

PS -Gord - please tell me what is a LAT4,AME and TC

[duckedy]

Hey New girl,

By reading your post it sounds as if you are very unhappy with your job. You seem to blame everyone else in the company when its been a bad day. I'm sorry but it is your job to deal with unruly passengers, delayed flights, ontime flight, lost baggage etc...if you do not like your job description then why don't you go back to school and do something else. Please do not put down RJ FO's who have worked there tails off to get where they are today. Just becasue in the future they will get to a higher wage and you won't does not make what you think of them as right.

What a joke....but this is Canada and everyone feels that they should be equal as everyone else. "If you make this much, I should make this much"

Welcome to Canada

[newgirl]

Dear Duckedy

No I was not putting down RJ pilots , I was only saying that in their lifetime with AC they would end up making much more than I would ,as you would move on to larger aircraft Everyone has to work up the senority list and it takes years to get to the top!

Yes , I am not happy with the current climate in this company. 5 years ago there were very few complaints within the AC family, we all managed to work together peaceably now every different union group is at each others throat Why is that ?!

[Mitch Cronin]

New Girl... an AME is an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer - We're the folks who maintain our airplanes. LAT4 is Air Canada's designation... it stands for Licensed Aircraft Technician level 4 (the highest we can go unless we become a "Lead" LAT.

TC is Transport Canada.

I'm afraid I can't sympathize with your plight either ... I too am an AME (LAT 4) at Air Canada.... been where I'm at since 85... Along with the pilots, we share the responsibility for the lives of all those people you see down the gateway... and the guy who fixes your fridge makes more than we do.

[newgirl]

Mitch

Thanks for your clarication on AME etc. Using old words are you an aircraft mechanic? In our base we have to fly in a mechanic to sign off or fix the aircraft as they pulled the mechanics from here years go. So I am not familar with the newer job designations.

[Guest yycfaguy]

Gang I can't believe what I read here. Why are we so obsessed about what other people with completely different skill sets earn. Who the hell cares. Fact is we have all taken a reduction. As both a flight attendant and most recently a corporate pilot here in yyc (I do both because I too want to wear the AC pilot's uniform one day....I'm getting there ) All of the arguemnts about who should take the pay cuts are absolutely rediculous.

Speaking as a pilot in this godforesaken country the reason why RJ f/o wages are so low is directly attributable to the fact that pilot wages and treatment of pilots in this country is deplorable. Coupled to the fact that senior pilots eat thaier young advocating that "it has to be just as hard for them as it was for me!" There is no brotherhood here and until that changes we, as pilots are never going to be respected for the professionals we are. But let us not degrade or position by seeming elitist.

As a Flight attendant I too am a very skilled individual, conversant fluently in both official languages, can evacuate an aircraft in minutes flat, am able to address many medical problems and most importantly I can read passengers so well i usually know what they need before they ask.

And let us not forget our ground agents. How quickly some of us pilots forget how difficult this position can be. I did all the booking as a junior pilot up north in Inuvik. i organised , priced, and crewed aircraft for charters that flew all over the NW arctic. it is a tough job. Our people have to know all of the booking rules, aeroplan rules, aircraft layouts, Contingent rules....they too are skilled workers. (I still can't figure out cruise and all the codes).

It amazes me that we all think that our position is more important than somebody elses....we are all cogs in the same wheel ...lose one cog and we are fahqed.

I too was upset that CAW was holding out and said a couple of things here tht were off colour. But now that alll have agreed we gotta look past that and recognise that we all are important to this company.

my 2 cents

[Guest cormacward]

New Girl,

You said that you question what we pay our front end crew and you have every right to do that! Bare with me as I am writing this from Taiwan where I am now flying for a Taiwanese Airline instead of my dream job of Air Canada.

Well here goes and please do not take this personally cause it’s not personal whatsoever.....its economics.

The Starting pay for pilots at AC when I was hired was about 42K a year before tax. Now I left almost $60K flying job to fly for AC and I was the proudest guy in that room when we where first addressed back in October 2000.

1st year pay at AC 42K

2nd year pay at AC 49K

3rd year pay at AC 44K

This is what I earned to fly a B747-400 for our NATIONAL CARRIER......

Cathay Pacific

1st year pay is 80K cdn

Plus they pay your housing which is a couple of thousand Canadian a month...so we can call that 24K

Plus the pilot get a 13 month performance bonus and that is averages about 6K

Cathay 1st year is 110K a year to fly a B747-400 as a SECOND OFFICER!

Qantas starting pay is 80K cnd your first year and goes up higher after your probation.

Now these are very close figures because my best friend flies for CX and I have been to HK to see how he lives as a pilot. He lives a life that I will NEVER live at air Canada. My current employer here in Taiwan pays me more money as an FO on the 744 that what a whole RJ crew (2pilots) at air Canada takes home in a year and paying me a housing allowance of 1100USD a month!

If you think pilots wages are the problem at Air Canada you are horribly mistaken. While we try and compete with the Asian carriers of the world remember we have NEVER been on a level playing field. How do we compete with airlines that do not have labor laws...that hire and fire FA's a soon as they do not fit into the mold any more. Pensions are none existent here in Asia and if you care to just how much your job pays in Asia.......!

Trust me when I say this.....every single person at Air Canada needs to take a LONG HARD look at what they do and how they do it....including the pilots! I would give anything to have my job back at Air Canada in Vancouver and I could care less what I made doing it! Pride is something that Canadians in general are lacking! We would rather put are own country down than take pride in it!

I am still a little boy I guess...... because I still dream of Air Canada being the best airline in the world but that is not going to happen until people are made accountable and take PRIDE in what they do! Money was one of my biggest motivations in life and I am quickly learning at a young age that I would rather be broke n happy than rich n miserable. I am sorry that this is happening to all of us........it was not my in my wildest dreams/nightmares! However it is happening and for this airline to compete we have to pay a wage that fits the job. Otherwise this is all elementary.........!

[Guest yycfaguy]

Well said cormacward....however like I said in my previous post I would suggest the lack of commensurate wages compared to other worldwide carriers is due to the problems in the canadian industry as a whole and AC is able to capitalise on that. It accentuates the symptomof a greater illness that this country suffers of always ensuring that the status quo prevails

incidently...are you the "cormac" that a former CMA pilot now w/ Jetsgo last name Gallagher speaks so notoriously about...if so I am honoured to make your acquaintance.

[Guest cormacward]

YYCFaGuy,

You just made me laugh my ass off........on a Ugly weather day here in Taipei.......and yes Mr. Gallagher and I have found ourselves in some very interesting predicaments!!

Say Hi to Ali for me.........

Cormac

[Guest ResKnight]

Ya, but your the janitor and I'm the CEO.

Your an Agent and I'm a Pilot.

I know I open myself up to some of your potential slags by identifying myself as a Res Agent. But, unlike many dedicated - and neccessary - colleagues in other parts of the company, I do make money for our company ($250-500 booked revenue per hour of work). Just like I kept doing during the 1998 pilot's strike. Just like when I book codeshare operated (flown by) other airlines.

This is *not* my choice though, because I prefer to book AC anyday, anyway, anytime, as I am very proud of the the work we all do - pilots, inflight, maintenance, call centres, aeroplan, airports, ramp etc...

So I pitty your limited attitude.

We are all part of the solution, and if you don't like that you can take your special talents to where you won't need to work well with others...

And I wouldn't compare yourself to a CEO... unless you think you're Robert Milton, and then you probably have bigger issues than not working well with others...

Keep the faith!

[Johnny]

I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do!

Here's the quote I was refering to.

Your agent buddy, newgirl, displays the classic Air Canada mindset. The CEO/Janitor was an attempt to draw attention to that.

If we make 100 times what you make, so be it.

There is ZERO commonality in our careers.

[Guest Gord]

Come on guys, the lady wasn't being nasty to anyone, she was asking questions, there are perhaps quite a few people who do not understand the per diem system that is employed by AC and/or any other airline when it comes to overseas flights.

She is after all a ticket agent (That is not a put down by the way Newgirl) and not expected to know the ins and outs of the other work groups, if she did have that training then she would not be a ticket agent, she would be an AME or a Pilot now wouldn't she.

I find it rather refreshing actually to have someone post who is not trying to put on aires and graces but simply stating facts as she sees them.

As for who should make the most money, I guess the industry in general decides that based on our value either real or perceived, well that and how well our bargaining units can operate.

I don't believe maintenance personnel make enough money considering the resposibility they have, which in all honesty is just as real as a pilots but I seriously doubt I could convince anyone other than an AME to believe that. Some pilots recognise that just as the passengers lives depend on their skill, their own lives as well as the passengers rest on the ability of the maintenance guys to do their job, others simply take it for granted that when they jump in the drivers seat, that everything in their high priced sports car is going to work as it should, without a thought for what has been done in the hangar overnight. Of course in it's own way this is a complement so I'm not expecting anyone on the flight crew to shake my hand and thank me or my fellow mechanics for a job well done or for ensuring that they have a safe flight. I just happen to think that perhaps we should be recognised just a tad more for the work we do, not just by the guys up front or the FA's but also by the public. Perhaps then they might actually think that we deserved a bit more than the relatively cheap wages we are being paid. After all, a plumber makes a lot more than we do, the same with an electrician and their jobs don't have to get up and travel at 600mph day after day.

Ok, I'm starting to ramble here, time for bed, 16yrs of steady midnights will do that to you.

Gord'.