All or nothing

[Guest parkerlava]

I really dont understand the sentiment going around the CAW rank and file workers. I have read posting after posting on here about how they would rather see the Airline fold then have to give up anything more. I do understand that people are angry and emotions are running exteremly high, but you really must stop and consider what you saying. Would you really rather have nothing than give up your paid breaks and a small salary concession? We all know no one is propsing an actual 10000 salary reduction. Is unemployment really the better option here. Remember, UI pais less than half you salary, and it only lasts for a year. SO im asking all the CAW members, to really think about this one, is it really in your best interests to be left with nothing? Because after all the emotions and posturing have died down thats what you'll be left with.

[Guest red caverns]

there are no caw members on this forum to answer this question as they all have their heads stuck so far up buzzs ...

[nozel]

RC

Is that your best shot?

Many are wisely and silently lurking...whilst the rest of you, silly enough, are jumping to foolish conclusions based on foolish speculations!

[Guest red caverns]

the judge is going to make buzz accept wage cuts tommorrow.......... and then he will make more outrageous statements to the press about how much the caw gave and that how the caw saved the airline but the rest of the employees will know the truth

[newgirl]

Dear RC

I am a 31 year employee of Air Canada and a CAW member. When I started in 1973 times were good and with only a grade 12 qualifcation, I was so excited to be hired by AC. It was a dream come true for me.

I have worked Reservations, Ticket office and finally Airport. In my base as a Mainliner we must be able to work every job i.e ticketing, check in and the gate. The larger bases have the ability to bid on a preferred work area and stay there as long as their senority will hold the bid. They are very efficent in those areas , sadly we are not as we are constantly moving to do every duty.

In 2002 , my net pay was 33000.00 after taxes etc.. in 2003 it was the same. Yes I am lucky to earn that wage with only a Grade 12 certificate. But I have worked 31 years to get to this point. So now if they want to take 10000.oo away from me , I will probably take home pay of 26000.00 (only guessing)

I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do! Yes we are seen to be sitting at the checkin counter doing nothing at times but when flights are delayed we also stay over our duty day to rebook the passengers and take the brunt of complaints. My fondest memories are of the Captains who actually came off the aircraft and explained to the passengers what the problem was for the delay. It was great public relations for the Company.

Red, I don't know what you do with the company but would you like to take home 26000.00 a year? Think of the people in the large centers who are single parents and depending on this wage.

I would really like to know just how hard the ACPA group has been hit?

[Seeker]

So now if they want to take 10000.oo away from me , I will probably take home pay of 26000.00

This is BS and you know it. The concessions that other employee groups have made, and the concessions required from the CAW are to be made up from: pay, hours, benefits etc. As Pam says, "fewer people doing more work for less money". Buzz's $10k/employee line might work for the public but doesn't wash here.

seeker

[Guest jeanmermoz]

Hassgrove said they were many investors waiting in lilne for AC. So far everyone has declined to come forward or confirm their intentions. Greenwald is only interested to fill the present gap of $250millions. Hassgrove is dreaming and does not care about AC.

Of course, it is better to close the company and send 35 000 other workers with a pay check of $0.00. Is Hasgrove and CAW going to pay the mortgages, put food on the table etc...for all these families?

Hassgrove is concealing the truth from his members. As far as how hard ACPA members have been hit, it goes from 15% (if you were luky) to near 45%...

Hassgrove has not done one step to find a solution. He is a danger to the union world because is motto is NO CONCESSION.

[Guest The Clumsy Lover]

newgirl

33000 a year after taxes. So what you are saying is that you are making close to 50k a year plus your benefits... And you feel this is hard off? 10 000 per year pay cut, as a previous poster mentioned this is a line of BS and you know it as well. In fact even the company is tired of hearing these blatant lies being spread through the media. Here is a quote from the news today...

"The leadership of the CAW has been asked to find $45 million dollars in labor savings as their contribution to the $200 million goal. While we normally would not comment on what has been discussed, we believe it is important to set the record straight on two rumours about the Company’s proposals which are circulating. First, the wage reduction proposals are equitable with what was agreed to by the other unions, and come nowhere close to $10,000 per employee. In fact, the Company has put other proposals on the table that would minimize the wage cut required, as was done with the other bargaining units. Secondly, the Company did not table a proposal to outsource the Call Centres. The overall objective was the same as with other unions—how do we work together to find a solution to close the gap through a combination of productivity improvements, monetary items and job reductions"

The ACPA people... "I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do". Well, I know a Dr. who makes more money than me and works less as well.. What exactly is your point there? You said it yourself, you have highschool education. I happen to be a pilot. On top of my flight training I have post secondary education and I have 14 years flying experience under my belt. I am on the RJ and my gross salary is less than yours. When the In Charges were flying on the RJ, the I/C salary was greater than that of the First Officer. There was a post above that mentioned a number of around 45%... That is a little off as well. All of ACPA took a 15% pay cut across the board, except for the RJ, which got a 20% pay cut which snapped back to 15% again a few months ago. This 15% pay cut however does not include productivity gains and bebefit cuts as well. I won't go into those because they are all part of the hits that all employees are giving. That is, all employees except yourself.

"When flights are delayed we also stay over our duty day to rebook the passengers and take the brunt of complaints" ... I hate to break it to you, but that's your job. We as pilots have all gone over our contractual duty days in the past as well. C.A.R.S duty days are another matter but sticking around to get the folks from a-b isn't something that you have a monopoly on. We are an airline, and that is what we do. It's just a shame that so many of us brothers have forgotten that.

[Dork]

The 15% to 45% was before this round of negots for the drivers. We are all still waiting......I think there will be a deal at the end of the trading day Friday despite all of the sabre rattling.

Let us hope that it is not only a deal we can all live with but that we actually don't have to hit the iceberg. I've got no air in the lifeboat. Time to put on a smile and get on with the job, we have all taken some hard hits.

Bunker time.

[Guest Skirt]

In 2002 , my net pay was 33000.00 after taxes etc..  in 2003 it was the same. Yes I am lucky to earn that wage with only a Grade 12 certificate. But I have worked 31 years  to get to this point. So now if they want to take 10000.oo away from me , I will probably take home pay of  26000.00 (only guessing)

NG,

My mother has been working for 35+ years as a general book keeper. (diploma from a business college) She doesn't even GROSS 33K! Oh ya, no benefits or pension. Nada! (& I'm pretty sure she works just as hard, if not harder that you.) Sorry, but I have no tears for you.

John.

p.s. Please don't compare your job to a Pilot's. Apples to Watermelons!

[Johnny]

    In 2002 , my net pay was 33000.00 after taxes etc..  in 2003 it was the same. Yes I am lucky to earn that wage with only a Grade 12 certificate. But I have worked 31 years  to get to this point. So now if they want to take 10000.oo away from me , I will probably take home pay of  26000.00 (only guessing)

    I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do!

Thanks for proving the point for us.

You are over paid for the skill set you have. Please find for me another job that pays over $50.000/year not to mention the great benefits at Air Canada.

Here is a little analogy for you:

When I got out of University my buddy had been working part time at Safeway in the Produce department. Upon graduation, with a fresh Bachelor of Commerce, he was unable to find a job that equalled the GREAT pay at Safeway.

He stayed working at Safeway, putting lettuce on the shelf.

THAT WAS THEN..........there no longer are people earning that kind of money at Safeway.

Reminds me of Air Canada! We can no longer afford to pay $50K/year to people with the equivalant skill set of a Bank Teller.

PS. Please do not compare yourself to a Pilot. After you've gone out and got a post-secondary education, spent $50,0000 on flying training, spent over 10 years in industry to gain the experience to apply to a major Airline. Then spend a few more years at that Airline earning less than the Baggage Smashers, F/A's and Ticket Agents.

Your opinion will be listened to.

[Jaydee]

    I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do!   

    I would really like to know just how hard the ACPA group has been hit?

" I am a 31 year employee of Air Canada and a CAW member. When I started in 1973 times were good and with only a grade 12 qualifcation, I was so excited to be hired by AC. It was a dream come true for me."

I too am a long time AC employee. After university working in a dead end job I decided to become a pilot. $ 50,000 later in direct expenses and lost wages ( 1970 $$ ), and after 5 years of BS minimum wage jobs, I was finally hired at AC. For the first 3 years on base pay, my wage was less than what I was previously making as a charter pilot for a small company, but I knew the short term pain was worth the sacrifice for long term gain. Well, the long term gain time is supposed to be here, and it ain't happening. So be it, I can't change the history of incompetence and mismanagement in this company. Just be thankfull the pilots do their job about 10,000 times better than Milton has done his. Milton should have been a baseball player. Where else do you get paid zillions to be wrong 75% of the time? Oh yeah... I forgot....be the CEO of a major airline......

After 10 years as a second officer watching someone else do the job I worked hard to get, I was finally able to hold FO status. in my 19th year I could finally hold Captains status. My dream had finally come true, but it didn't happen right out of high school with no training or hard work. 24 years after I got involved in this business I was finally doing what I wanted to do.

"In 2002 , my net pay was 33000.00 after taxes etc.. in 2003 it was the same. Yes I am lucky to earn that wage with only a Grade 12 certificate. But I have worked 31 years to get to this point. So now if they want to take 10000.oo away from me , I will probably take home pay of 26000.00 (only guessing)"

" I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do!"

After 31 years in aviation, about 150 simulators , 30 check flights and 40 medicals later, each of which could have affected my career, yes, I now ONLY gross about 3 times as much as you do and I am worth every $$ I am paid. If you make a mistake you say OOOPS....sorryyyy..If I make a mistake...well we won't even go there. For you to even consider comparing your wages to that of a pilots shows just how skewed this industry really is. Why don't you compare your wages to Miltons or the BOD's? They make a hell-of-a-lot more than I do. Every time I step into that cockpit I carry more responsibility than any other employee in this company, but somehow that lil tid bit always gets conveniently lost in the discussions about wages. I won't even attempt to include the red/blue/Keller award BS and its everlasting effects on my career.

"I would really like to know just how hard the ACPA group has been hit?"

My best year was in 2000 when we got the bonus. I made less in 2001, less in 2002, a huge hit in 2003 and will make dramatically less in 2004 after the next cuts take effect. In short I will make almost $ 70,000 less in direct hard wages, $45,000 of that given up in last years pay cut compared to 2000.. As one of those Captains you admire who still goes into the lobby and makes PA's about delays, I further expect another hit of about $ 15,000 - $20,000 +++ .( pilot cuts are based proportionately to income ) My gross pay will then have been cut almost in half as compared to only 4 years ago. So don't even go there with the.."What has ACPA given".....The CAW isn't even in the same ball park , let alone the same team ! The CAW hasn't taken squat other than the benefit cuts we all got hit with. It's time for you to join the team and take your fair share like the rest of us have.

You admit you gross almost $50,000 plus benefits.....what you seem to forget is that your wages are to a great extent a result of pilot negotiations over the years in the form of " me too " clauses. Every time Calpa, now ACPA sat down we were told...I know you guys are paid less than your counterparts elsewhere,but what you guys get we have to give to 30,000 other employee's and we only have so much to go around. My entire career has been spent watching other pilots doing the same job I do make more, while you spent your whole career making more than the agents in those competitive companies. I notice you arn't screaming ME TOO Me TOO when the cuts are happening.

"Think of the people in the large centers who are single parents and depending on this wage."

I truly sympathize with you on this one. I had to move out of the large centre years ago to afford a life. Maybe you will have to as well now. You may be better off taking a package that Milton talks about, retiring with an income and then getting a another job somewhere else. I think all of us , regardless of our position with AC will be examining other options shortly.

Regards,

JayDee

[Guest ikfu]

The cuts to all Air Canada employees are going to be tough on everyone. I feel for Newgirl on that. I don't buy her line though.

Newgirl has to get off the comparison to pilot wages line of thinking. It seems to work that in benefit negotiations, everyone wants to tag onto that line for a me too benefit. If you want to compare to pilot wages, then tag onto the pilot give backs, also, or let that line of thinking go.

AMEs and pilots are licenced. They serve apprenticeships of one sort or another. To maintain that licence they are required to meet government mandated standards. Pilots are required to meet a health standard yearly and after 40 every six months. If you cared to check out the amount of information that is required to be absorbed from the time one starts into the AME process, I'm pretty sure you'd be amazed. Likewise into the pilot learning curve from a basic Private licence, through to an Airline Transport Pilot Licence. That is not the end, because there is continual testing. This is the basis of whether you are allowed to continue to hold that licence, and therefore your job.

At a $33,000 net takehome pay, Newgirl is probably doing better right now than some of the pilots at Air Canada, for example RJ FOs. Newgirl does not have to lay your job on the line upwards of 5 times per year to keep a licence. That RJ FO likely spent in today's money $50-60,000 of his/her money reaching that licencing standard, after Grade 12. Aside from the years required to attain that standard, they had to apprentice at some pretty lowly jobs in many cases, working for minimum wages in probably not great conditions. That is part of the process, and certainly helps to make one appreciate the goal. Unfortunately the goal does not pay off so well anymore. Why spend that kind of money and effort in training with such a low percentage chance of a return on that investment now? A pilot makes the same wage as you.

If that pilot wants a job with some carriers, they have to put up money to get the job. Do you? Do passenger agents or flight attendants at Jetsgo or Canjet have to come up with cash to buy their job?

Aside from AMEs, the sanctions against those groups do not exist for in comparison. Fines by the government, or time off, retraining or dismissal for job performance likely don't exist for you. The union can protect many of your actions, but once a pilot has lost a medical, or been violated in certain conditions of the law, the union protection can not help him or her keep a licence.

Flight attendants are not licenced. If they truly demand pay equity, I suspect that licencing them will be a requirement.

Flight attendants might have a claim to pay equity if they were licenced, met a continual, much higher health standard, required to meet a government tested standard every six months of performance and knowledge, had check rides every six months, and on the line check every year, all of which would be conditions for continued employment. Failing would mean dismissal. Each flight would carry the scrutiny of inspectors who could apply sanctions that may end their career.

[Johnny]

Flight attendants are not licenced. If they truly demand pay equity, I suspect that licencing them will be a requirement.

Flight attendants might have a claim to pay equity if they were licenced, met a continual, much higher health standard, required to meet a government tested standard every six months of performance and knowledge, had check rides every six months, and on the line check every year, all of which would be conditions for continued employment. Failing would mean dismissal. Each flight would carry the scrutiny of inspectors who could apply sanctions that may end their career.

I know it's early, but, did you fall on your head.

Licence or not there is not a F/A worth anywhere close to a Pilot.

Or an AME!

[magentadonut]

if a flight attendant wants pay equity with pilots

why not just go get a license and apply for the job

[buzz]

Johnny, I think you missed the gist of ikfu's post.

It'll be a frosty day in hades before TC brings in licencing for cabin crew. I think his/her rhetorical musings were bang on. We peelots hang it out there constantly; I don't know about the rest of you, but sim is a sweaty, intense experience each and every time for me. Seem to pass, tho (touch wood).

The pay equity fight CUPE's waving around won't go anywhere, except maybe show up on a documentary on the Women's Channel in a few years.

[Johnny]

Johnny, I think you missed the gist of ikfu's post.

It'll be a frosty day in hades before TC brings in licencing for cabin crew. I think his/her rhetorical musings were bang on. We peelots hang it out there constantly; I don't know about the rest of you, but sim is a sweaty, intense experience each and every time for me. Seem to pass, tho (touch wood).

The pay equity fight CUPE's waving around won't go anywhere, except maybe show up on a documentary on the Women's Channel in a few years.

Rumor has it they gave it up as part of their agreement, so it may all be for nothing.

I guess we all know that the company will fight to the end of the earth to keep them from getting licenced.

The 'Womens Channel' great place for it.

Starring Pam "Attila the Hen" in the leading role of 'Fem'n Nazi."

[Johnny]

I know that there are pilots out there with half the years of service and making 3 times my salary working far less hours a month than I do!

Another classic line, that speaks volumes about the mind set at a 'Legacy Carrier.' (ya gotta love that name)

I'm senior to you, I've been here for 31 years, I should earn more money.

Ya, but your the janitor and I'm the CEO.

Your an Agent and I'm a Pilot.

[moeman]

I can't believe that people like new girl have actually fallen for Buzz's mantra....$10k per person....$10K per person....! You'd think these people would have a little more intelligence than that.

As for the pay equity thing, if, and that's one heck of a big if, it is successful, I believe that they have agreed to be paid out in shares or rights in the restructured company. It will go forward, but there's no real risk of multi-million dollar payouts to the investors. Not that there's much risk of it being successful, but you have to cover yourself I suppose. They also agreed to a speedy resolution process for grievances and such.

[YYC I/C]

Johnny,

Although I disagree with the pay equity arguement being put forth by my union, I just want to point out it was not part of the deal. CUPE agreed to deal with all grievences in an expedited manner; however, they refused to give up the fight for pay equity. For what ever reason, it's Pam's baby.

[wizard]

Hey Moeman do you work for AirCanada? If so what do you do?

[YYC I/C]

And unfortunately, if Bell Canada is an example of what might happen in a pay equity tribunal, I think CUPE has a good chance of winning. If that's the case, that's what may eventually place the last nail in the coffin. Probably 5 years away from a decision though.

[moeman]

I'm a stew, why?

[wizard]

Sometimes you sound like you are Management, that's why I asked.

[moeman]

HEY! Could you keep the shots ABOVE the belt!!!

And I agree with YYC I/C in that I don't happen to agree with the arguments being put forth. But if the courts, in their infinite wisdom , decide that the case has merit then who am I to say it shouldn't go forth. I just think it has that snowballs chance of making it that far.