Kip Powick Posted January 2, 2004 Author Share Posted January 2, 2004 WINDSHEARnailed it…. Read his post It is also my humble opinion that, in addition to what many of you have written, one of the most important traits of a Captain is his tactful ability to engage in pertinent guidance with his F/O and what I mean by that statement is his ability to teach/instruct his F/O during their “partnered mission”. I don’t believe anyone, other than WINDSHEAR has come right out and stated that is a desired quality of a Captain. Certainly he is a “manager” but he should also be a “teacher”……… at the right times. “Oh well, naturally we all do that,” some will say, but based on my experience and conversations…it is just not true…….in many cases. Let me explain…I was very fortunate when I moved over to CP and over to the T-Rex, that I was partnered with very, very experienced T-Rex drivers, the majority of whom came from the East coast and had more knowledge about the T-Rex and what could be done with the aircraft than the average T-Rex driver. I remember on my first “revenue flight” asking the Captain if he would bend my ear and give me suggestions regarding what I could do to improve upon my skill with the aircraft and as well perhaps he could impart some technical knowledge. He was shocked at my request, no one had asked him to do that for eons and apparently a years earlier he had made a few suggestions to a “green” T-Rex driver and had been told to politely “F*** O**” by the young guy who stated that he was qualified and had passed his SIMs and Route checks and he certainly didn’t need any advice from some old fart on how to fly the aircraft. An isolated case….no…How many Captains turn to their F/O and tactfully suggest that if he/she did this or that it would make their life a lot easier?? I don’t mean continually harp at the poor soul but rather, at the right time, pass on some of your expertise. I have flown with many fellows, I have occupied the jump seats on many an aircraft, and have seen the Captain just let the F/O do his thing and I know that the Captain wanted to suggest a better way, but he did not, or in some cases I assume he just let the F/O stumble along, the F/O wasn’t being dangerous but he could have learned something if (1) he asked, (2) the Captain had provided a few pointers. At this point I would like to interject that I am/ was ex-Mil and those that have gone down that road will remember that on any aircraft, that involved two pilots, there was always teaching going on at some point during the flight, that was part of the Captains job and every F/O who wanted to make his way to the coveted position of Aircraft Commander drew heavily from the experienced people he flew with. I would also like to state that there are innumerable times where the F/O has more experience on type, and/or perhaps more “logged time”, than the Captain but the dialogue still works …even from the right seat to the left seat. Certainly it takes tact to suggest to a peer, especially if he has the four stripes, that there is a better way. If as a Captain, you do not teach/assist/help/guide your F/O during some facet of the flight, you,in my opinion are remiss in your duty as the Captain…. It’s a bad day when you don’t learn something during every flight….no matter which seat you occupy. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted January 2, 2004 Share Posted January 2, 2004 "an interesting lecturer from AA" Alcoholics Anonymous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Touchdown Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Kip You're right...to a point. As a young, errrr, well not that young pilot type that has logged enough pic to not care about that (do attack me folks...I couldn't think of any other way of putting it), I find that either seat can be the teacher. I think it was mentionaed above, that we're always learning and after being on my current type 6 years the last 3 as CCP, I am always finding guys (and gals) who have a better way to do things. I jokingly refer to my motto as "if you learn something, then you can go home" and for me it's the truth. From ramp, to stoc to cara to dispatch and everyone in between, I still learn daily. So as far as "Captains teaching" I agree, if and big if, they know how to and have valuable input to pass on. Otherwise, we all know there are 2000 different ways to fly within the SOP's..... And that's my opinion.... Touchdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 You said...I find that either seat can be the teacher. I said.... I would also like to state that there are innumerable times where the F/O has more experience on type, and/or perhaps more “logged time”, than the Captain but the dialogue still works …even from the right seat to the left seat. Certainly it takes tact to suggest to a peer, especially if he has the four stripes, that there is a better way. I don't disagree with your response but just wanted to know if I've missed something in your posting. I also agree that it behooves the operation if one learns what the other folks in the company do. As well, I agree that there are those that "can teach" and those that can't. Hopefully the latter is a very small number. Those of us that were QFIs had a big advantage as we have had recognized "courses" but there are those that have had the same courses yet lack the personality to be a good instructor....I'm sure we have all met a couple of those ....Instructing/teaching is a fine art and fortunately I have met many a fine QFI..( cause I needed them ... :> Re..Instructing/checking techniques??? Well that's a whole 'nother thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ama Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 An interesting discussion. I have flown with many Captains and there are few who were ready and willing to assist. Most I found were happy to see you screw something up and they were all over you. However, if they did something wrong and you pointed it out to them, they gave you a look of disgust. IMHO, when a Captain gets that forth bar, something happens to that individual, a feeling of power, arrogance and cockyness. Please correct me if i'm wrong in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Hiya Kip ol' pal... I've got some thoughts... If a Captain's "primary responsibility" is anything other than getting his ship and it's contents safely to it's/their destination in a safe, timely and comfortable manner, then I'm in need of some more education... However, the "secondary" responsibilities, could be somewhat more complex I suspect.... I'd like to suggest that one of those responsibilities is the care of his ship. And that would, in my mind, include ensuring that any snags that required reporting for correction were reported in such a manner that said correction could be made with as much information as would be needed. It's something I and gazillions of my kind come across on a regular basis, that something is snagged as being "inop", or "doesn't work", or whatever, with little or no related information given. I know, and I understand, pilots can't be trouble shooting for us, but so many times snags are written with valuable information not given, that would have been/was readily available, and would give us a great head start to our trouble shooting process... ANY related info.... Pneumatic snags - duct pressures, switch positions, temperatures, pack settings, did nose cowl anti ice work, what did and what else didn't... anything related... Engine snags... throttle settings, n1 n2 egt yada yada blah blah... ALL related information... Now, maybe that's not the Captain's job to record those snags, but I'd reckon it'd be the commander's responsibility to make sure that the ugly little grease dog's that run all over his ship, when he's done with it, have the best chance he can give them for fixing the broken stuff.... Information is a great tool.... the lack of same, in such situations, is like having a big beautiful toolbox, locked, with the keys left at home. Cheers, yer pal, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DashTrash Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 A "good" captain does half the walkarounds. Start with that and the rest will come naturally.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted January 3, 2004 Author Share Posted January 3, 2004 Mitch, All the best for 2004 !!! Your answer to the question is understandable and I certainly would vouch for the validity of your comments concerning the inadequate info re “snags”. It is a problem that is real and should not be but let me give you a couple of reasons/excuses that it does happen. As you are aware, the page we write the snag up on has only so much space and many of us write the problem up using language that would seem to indicate that you were with us when it happened. I mean ..don’t you know what we mean when it has been written “oil pressure fluctuates”?? :> Of course you want more details but you may not get them because some pilots feel you MUST know what we are talking about….so here the trend is a lack of good information The other problem is the fact that when a discrepancy is called in prior to arrival, most pilots…because we still tend to think the world revolves around us, want the AME/Electric whiz guy waiting for us and want to talk to him NOW. Naturally that is not always possible and we may have to wait a few minutes or, God forbid, a half hour, and most pilots won’t do that. They want to get out of the tube they have just spent a few hours in and go home, or to the hotel…thus the snag is not elaborated on and you are left guessing. In a perfect world, the pilot would not be “released until the “fixer” had all the info he wanted and we had a “fixer” waiting at the gate for every “snagged” aircraft. How do we try to make it better??? Snags should be written clearly and concisely, using language that all can comprehend and in a manner that will expedite the troubleshooting. I think you can understand the pilots’ reluctance to stand around, hat in hand, waiting for Maintenance but I think a compromise in the time spent waiting could be accomplished. Who writes it up??. It’s a Captains decision, really, and he can delegate the F/o to write it up but he should proof read it, not just close the book and put it away. Some F/Os are much better with the written word than the Captain, and vice versa, so it can all be chalked up to the “teaching thing” if the Captain wants to go that route. Have a great day off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 ...and not "I'll do my half in the summer and you do your half in the winter" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Why not just switch seats every other leg? How about the Captain that also does a walkaround based on the fact that four eyes are better than two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 So, based on your comment I'm left to believe that you'll be the perfect model Capt someday, right? I'll bet that in your mind today you're already the perfect F/O, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ama Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 No need to be sarcastic. Perfect? heck no, far from it. Is there such a person? But I think I know what kind of Captain I would like to be. Having flown with many over the years, I have observed good and bad, attitude wise not ability wise. It is the positive attitude along with a positive personality working together as a team instead of talking down to subordinates that can gain alot of respect for a Captain. IMHO Insert smiley thingy here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 In your first post you lumped most Captain's into one general category (not sure what inclusive term to apply). Perhaps you are the one responsible for generating the negative attitudes? Strong personalities that are forced into a shoe box for long periods don't always meld in the positive sense. Believe it or not, operating a segment with certain F/O's can be equally challenging for the Cpt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steam Driven Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Hey Mitch, I was in the hanger with my daughter a while back showing her "my" airplane. One of our maintanance friends pulled her aside and told her it wasn't "Daddy's Airplane" it was HIS! He just let me use it! So with that in mind, a Captains job would be to ensure that I bring the borrowed plane back in one piece to the MTCE dept.! (d) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ama Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Exactly my point, when one makes a constructive critism or forms an opinion, some Capt. will shoot you down as if you did something wrong. Some can dish it out but they can't take it. I have flown with alot of dynamite Capt. who know what their responsibilites are but they don't let the 4th bar get to their head. Sounds like you're the opposite. Maybe we will fly one day and discover each other personalities. I may be surprised that you may be one of the good Capt. I will have the opportunity to fly with...then again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Thanks for that Kip... (I just found it a wayyyy down here and I don't know if you'll find this?) I agree with you. When a ship has a snag worth some explanation, or where some degree of discussion with the pilot could assist in trouble shooting, one of us should be there to meet the crew upon arrival. Working in the hangar, I wouldn't know if the request is ever made, or how readily such a request would be accomodated. When I get to pick the beast up that we're about to fiddle with all night long (only happens once a week or so, as the birds we're scheduled to diddle with are often down before we start shift) I always try to make it to meet the crew for the "how's your airplane?" question. That's sometimes lead to some worthwhile results. Anyway... little late now, but... all the best for the new year to you as well! Maybe this is the year we'll get our chance to get you to offer our kids some water skiing tips? Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Amen to that! In the hangar she is our's. Once at the gate, she's handed to you with love and trust. Like a father giving his daughter away at her wedding... Treat her well, and with respect... Make her happy... at the very least, see that no harm comes to her! The trouble with that analogy comes as we know we'll get the bird back when you're done. Good thing life with daughter's isn't like that! (...hope, hope, hope! My daughter's only 12) (d) to you too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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