Mitch Cronin Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 "A running engine is better than a shut down one." I'd be guessing that might change if the running of it was likely to ignite that plume streaming from the beast.? I catch your drift. Mistakes do happen... They shouldn't ever leave the barn though, much less get in the air... Not beating any heads, not even my own... Just pondering really... There has been some interest in safety recently that has me wondering in every case where things could have changed. Both down here, and up there. Anyway, Cheers to you also, and Merry Christmas. Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HHI Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Hello Kip, As I recall, another aircraft reported "white smoke" coming from the engine. Now we all know what that "smoke" was. But in the mere minutes that the crew used to while dealing with the situation, it appears they made an immediate decision to get it on the ground ASAP. I understand the crew had no indications in the cockpit of anything wrong other than an external report of "smoke". My bet would also be on not shutting down an engine without confirmation of what and where the problem is. For me it's a lesson learned from the "Kegworth" incident. Cheers, Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sputnik Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Boeing Pilot Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 First of all I'm not questioning the crew's actions during this flight, since I was not present. How difficult would it be to confirm a fuel leak in a 330? As far as I'm concerned it is quite simple (Boeing aircraft) If you suspect a fuel leak go tank to engine and wait to see if there is an imbalance. If a Boeing lost 3600kg of fuel it would be quite easy to figure out which engine was leaking. What ever tank has lost the most amount of fuel(abnormally high imbalance) is your leaky engine, shut her down. Obviously if you can have the FO go back and check visually to help confirm. Can you not follow the same procedure in a 330? Or am I missing something? Happy Holidays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Sorry, Henry..I disagree. "White", smoke, black smoke...whatever....something is wrong on that side, near an engine that is producing flames. Shut down the engine. The aircraft can fly with one engine but it won't fly for long with a missing wing. If they had shut it down and landed safely...there is not one individual that could say.."Hey..you screwed up." If they had not shut it down, the wing disappeared, or whatever, all the armchar quarterbacks would be asking..."Why didn't they shut it down?" Just my opinion, but better safe than sorry. Have a nice Holiday Season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Sorry, Henry..I disagree. "White", smoke, black smoke...whatever....something is wrong on that side, near an engine that is operating, we know there is flames/heat inside. Shut down the engine. The aircraft can fly with one engine but it won't fly for long with a missing wing. If they had shut it down and landed safely...there is not one individual that could say.."Hey..you screwed up." If they had not shut it down, the wing disappeared, or whatever, all the armchar quarterbacks would be asking..."Why didn't they shut it down?" Just my opinion, but better safe than sorry. Have a nice Holiday Season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idle Thrust Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Kip, give it a rest. This is armchair-quarterbacking at its worst. The crew handled the situation in an expeditious manner and the result was successful. Engines have fire warning systems close to the hot section for a reason; no fire, no shutdown until you have time to assess the situation. Boeing Pilot, the 330 would be tank-to-engine for takeoff so, yes the crew could, given time, ascertain which tank/engine combination was leaking. Note my words - the whole wing contains fuel, just because you see an imbalance does not mean the "engine" is where the leak is. IF the engine was still producing power (that has not come out yet), and absent any engine malfunction indications, I think you would need pretty detailed info as to the location of the leak before you began a shutdown procedure in an attempt to isolate a fuel leak. Especially close to the ground (evidently they never got above circuit height). Sure, if you had info from a knowledgeable source that the leak was from the engine below the pylon shutoff, a shutdown would be advisable but in this case they just got the thing on the ground (airborne 15 minutes) which was a prudent course of action. Not certain how many contributors to this thread are pilots but, yet again, I am forced to wonder why we pilots are so hard on our own when commenting from the comfort of home in front of a keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Continuous Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Could it be? Nah it couldn't be. http://www.airliners.net/open.file/449004/M/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I'm with you Kip... Fuel trailing from an engine would be among the things I'd consider worth pulling the fire handle for... Fire bottles do diddley-squat outside the cowls. But then, that presumes I knew that fuel was streaming from the engine, and that I didn't feel I really needed whatever power it might have been developing at the time ... Hard to know what these guys really knew, or thought they knew... or thought. Cheers, and Merry Christmas to you and Scuba O2, 3 and 4 and the rest... ( Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Ha Haaah! Good one! Maybe they thought it was coming from the jettison pipe somehow?.... Though that could certainly be ascertained in a hurry by a visual, they didn't seem to have much time for that. Thanks for that too Max... I guess, if nothing else, I've gathered that actions taken need to follow what you know about a given situation... without enough information, it's pretty hard to know anything, other than land asap, is in order. Merry Christmas Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Kip, give it a rest. This is armchair-quarterbacking at its worst. Give it a rest??? May I suggest that you re-read what I have written. Nowhere did I advocate that the crew was wrong, nor did I advocate that their procedure was in error. I did advocate that I probably would have done it differently. If, and when, you reread my posting you will find that I did not “armchair quarterback” “their procedure” but stated that many here would have been armchair quarterbacking if things had not turned out as well as they did. Before casting dispersions please take the time to read a post and absorb the content, if you have any questions feel free to post/ask them...... in the meantime have a safe Holiday Season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 "Ahhhh tower was that the right engine ... or the left engine?????... or your right ... and my left????" I doubt they had enough time to look themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Sorry Kip, you're wrong on this one. The crew had scant information relayed from an outside source. They did the right thing. Had they followed your suggestion of shutting down the engine there is a high probability that the wrong one gets shut down. For instance, a strong crosswind could make it appear that fuel is coming from the right engine when in fact it is leaking from the left. Please don't judge this crew. They did the right thing, period. I am glad they were flying and not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I've never flown an Airbus but every other aircraft I have flown will give you a sudden yaw with a loss of an engine at takeoff thrust which draws my attention to the EGT gauge, and the EGT gauge reacts very quickly to a loss of fire in the burner cans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 LOL. That would have to be one mighty strong cross wind !!!!! I more amazed that some of you don't read very well. Did I ever, in any of these postings "pass judgement" on the crew???? Let me make it very plain what I have said. I would have shut down the engine after confirmation that the correct engine was leaking fuel. I am glad they were flying and not you. That arrogant,as well as biased comment does not deserve comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Re: "LOL. That would have to be one mighty strong cross wind !!!!!" or maybe an already bent airplane... funny how some don't seem to see that from the airplane's point of view the "wind" is always on the nose. (except when something's wrong, or you're standing on the rudder) I remember an instructor taking me for a ride in a 150, after I'd scared the wits out of myself in it, as I needed left rudder at all times, even in a climb in this particular airplane... He said it was the wind! Silly blighter! (I later learned the trim tab on the rudder was bent the wrong way when it was backed into the hangar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stone Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Sorry to offend you Kip, but sometimes the truth hurts. You were in fact passing judgement on this crew by arm-chair quarterbacking and telling 'what you would do'. I am saying that you would have been too quick to shut the engine down with the scant information available. I'll fly with this crew anyday...you, I'm not so sure about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Kip; You're right about ". . . not all I would rely upon.", and thanks for the space on a hurried response. This incident touches upon many issues and invites a thorough response, few of them being rabbit trails but directly related to what happened. A lot of "what if's" arise too. Happily, no "what-if's" arose. Still have some demands on my time, but I want to contribute to the discussion. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Mitch...back to you shortly. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Don't worry about having to fly with me..it'll never happen ......check my profile ...But in my defense, I did get through 40 years of sitting in the cockpit without putting anyone in harms way, on one engine, two engines, three engines, and four engines...lucky or what eh :> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Kip...quick question...were you ever on the 320 or that type of a/c...sorry, I just don't know what you retired off of... Cheers, dh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Flew the A310 with WD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nordo Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Kip, I've got to hope that there is much more to retirement than trying to disect and second guess an aviation event you read about. Nordo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leading Edge Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Mr Boing Pilot, The exact scenario that you referencing to re: shutting down the engine on the low tank is exactly what got Air Transat into trouble on a 330. Personally, I would not shutdown an engine on a radio call, especially if I had an engine at Idle thrust. So; given the lack of cockpit indications, our only option was to have the FO go back and check, the big question is: would you opt for the very fast circuit or delay landing to perform the check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Uh Huh..there is... but perhaps you, like many others, may feel that once you have hung up your spurs, you should not enter the aviation arena, especially if one wants to post their humble opinion about any aviation incident. I truly hope that, if you are in the profession, and reach the "end", you don't harbour such a parochial view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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