dragon Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 ".. 747 (for another year anyway)..." Watch for further [re 47s] once we emerge from the penalty box.. and, your thoughts, re 340s, deserve some credit as well.. good things on the horizon, all things considered I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 15, 2003 Author Share Posted October 15, 2003 Here's a bit of background on what led to JetBlue's order of the ERJ-190 to inaugurate its future sub-network of mid-density, shorter range routes into JFK. While the ERJ-190 has a full one-cent seat mile cost disadvantage compared to the A320, tha was deemed to be acceptable because the margins on the shorter routes will be slightly higher. Againl it pays to remember that the smaller the aircraft, the higher its seat mile costs, which is why a Dash 8 or CRJ-50 has much higher seat mile costs than larger aircraft, and only work where the route is truly too small for the larger aircraft to capture good loads. The ERJ-190 was judged to be suitable for continuing the "JetBlue Experience" - basically a 32-inch seat pitch and wide enough aisles. JetBlue execs were quoted in the airline financial media as saying that the ERJ-190 is "much more like a DC-9-30 replacement" (sound familiar?) than a regional jet. JetBlue looked at the A318 and 717 - but judged them to be too big for the missions contemplated. The 318 also had the added disadvantage of not being able to use the IAE engines JetBlue has on the 320s. Tellingly, they concluded that the CRJ-900 "would not facilitate the JetBlue experience", meaning that it really did feel like a regional plane, could not support 32-inch seat pitch for a comparable passenger load. If AC is listening, that kind of comment truly does disqualify the CRJ-900. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted October 15, 2003 Author Share Posted October 15, 2003 Let me give you a practical example of current market conditions. Airbus has to sell new planes against this market. In July, Gulf Air picked up an extra A320 for a monthly lease rate of $95,000. It was previously paying $339,000 a month, on average, for A320s. It also picked up a pair of A340-300s from Boeing (yes, these were planes Boeing bought new from SQ as part of a deal to get them to switch in mid-order to 777s). The deal is a five year lease, but significantly, they have annual walkaway windows where they can give the plane back for no penalty. In other words, it's really five one-year leases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 yes.. as you say, the old days are the old days and the smart guys will capitalize on that.. long term. appreciate the intelligence dagger cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super 80 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Oh Please, Airbus and Boeing both give deep, deep discounts, the list prices are set high to give them some comfort room to negotiate from. You don't pay list price for your car, airlines don't pay list price for airplanes. Boeing has been shopping around the 717 at under $20 million, they even tried to GIVE NWA a pair of them for free. Boeing discounted the 737NG's so low for Ryanair that Airbus walked away from the table and Michael O'Leary the super sleazy drunk CEO of Ryanair has been braging that he "raped" Boeing and they were paying him for the privillage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pull Up Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 "AC crew at twice the price as Jazz" Last time I looked at my paycheck AC RJ pilots were making less than the Jazz boys and girls. You can thank your MEC for that, as he started the race to the bottom. We also didn't get the snap backs that you did, so the longer this plays out, the larger the difference in pay. If you're going to put "facts" out, make sure you have your facts right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greener Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 My take on things... - 318's deeply discounted to make it attractive enough. - The two 340-500's will magically appear in the fleet plan to handle the long haul direct flights. - RJ's orderly transferred to the Regionals by the present set rate i.e. one 340 for 3 RJ's (I think) - Or the RJ's are all sold and/or the Regionals are sold off as well. Just wait for the flurry after AC comes out of CCAA!!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I agree Steve..those two '500s are still parked and painted with the gear problem sorted...just waitin' to join the fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Please elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'm going on talk from the training dept.,but as I understand the 500 was to be delivered with a mod outstanding. Even before ccaa AC postponed acceptance untill some mod was completed...unfort. I don't know the specifics of the mod in question, Take that for what it's worth Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dwb yyc Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 So you are going to fly the 318 at JAZZ pilot RJ wages. Good for you, there is hope. Now if you can get the AC FA's at Jazz wages and working conditions, maintenience, crew sked, agents, your managenment and bring the number of employees needed per aircraft down to what JAZZ use. Now put the aircraft on at times the paxs want, this might work. Could'nt do in CCAA why do you think these unions will take further reductions. But stranger things have happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I'll look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pull Up Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Easy Big Boy, I was responding to your previous post which said Air Canada RJ crews cost twice what Jazz crews do. A great untruth. If we get something to replace the RJ, I'm sure we'll negotiate pay rates accordingly, and hopefully without any interference from our "friends" at Jazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dwb yyc Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I did not say that AC RJ's are twice the cost,that AC pilots are twice the cost on the 318's. Jazz pilots would get pay the same on the 318 as with the RJ's. Your new rate will still be higher than JAZZ. Then add in your other groups and the price goes through the roof. We are not trying to interfer with group, just trying to save our jobs and make this airline profitable. Something that seems to elude the mainline groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundeffect Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 If you find out what the 'mod' was ,please post it ..thanx cheers mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kilo Mike Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Hello dwd. With all do respect.. the pilots wages aren't the cost cruncher that will make or break the company. Jazz pilots could fly for free and there still would be cost issues with that division. The fact is that while the RJ wages are comparable to mainline, the cost per seat mile on the Dash is amoung the highest in North America for that type. Jazz folks seem to forget that part when they bleet the praises of their status pay system. There are alot of Dashes being flown at Jazz by max pay captains and first officers. Then when Jazz doesn't implement the ALPA plan, the wages jump back to an even higher rate. You are left again with a high cost regional network that isn't competetive in the new marketplace. So if you were in CCAA .. what would you do that just doesn't involve giving all the work to Jazz and lay eveyone off at the mainline. respectfully KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz2 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 You make some good points, however given the concessions made last round the Dash 8 is closer in cost as Tier 3, to your last comment about laying off all of the mainline pilots, that is just simply laughable, what obviously needs changing is how to do business in the domestic market place , frankly Air Canada mainline cannot and will not meet the demands required to compete against other lowcost competitors. If the company stays in its present form , it will be liquidated by the spring of 2004. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gino Under Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Without being rude. The 'dog and pony' show at Dorval last month was just that.....a 'show' and nothing more. Airbus and Boeing??? Get serious. I honestly don't think I've read a definition in the Aviation Industry that calls any Airbus or Boeing a "REGIONAL JET". I may be wrong. Maybe you could do some homework and straighten me out. Whatdaya say??? Expert! P.S. I believe Air Canada is looking at Regional Jets just to get you back on track. The Airbrush and Wonderjet were of no consequence. As for me, I'd rather fly on the Airbrush than the Wonderjet and I'd rather fly on either instead of a Regional Jet. B777. Now there's a passenger jet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gino Under Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I don't understand why some on this thread seem to feel there is a 'competition' to buy Airbus, Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier??? There isn't!!! If there was, I'd like to see them buy the A318 for a better fit. As for the 700/900 they are higher (not by a mountain) in price than the EMB170. The reality of introducing this type into the AC fleet offsets ANY cost savings or difference in purchase price advantage the EMB170 may 'appear' to have. Gino Under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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