handyman Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 In the last two months I have had several (3) late teens ask me about a career in aviation. Obviously with the current climate it is easy to react negatively and steer them towards anything but aviation. But if you think about the time it will take for them to be ready for a Major's or Regional type position we should be out of this mess. So, aside from the Military what good Degree or Diploma programs are available? Would you consider Flight Safety in Vero Beach? Looking for real answers...thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 I went through an aviation college program about 20 years ago. I feel that it was overpriced, for what i got from it, and it took too long. Whether or not it helped me get where I am I'll never know but if I had to do it again I would go to the local flying club and do all the flying while taking so totally unrelated college or university program. There is no doubt that a degree will help you along if you choose an airline career but I don't think it matters much what the degree is in. If you get an aviation degree you're somewhat of a one-trick pony. Seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 I went through an aviation college program about 20 years ago. I feel that it was overpriced, for what I got from it, and it took too long. Whether or not it helped me get where I am I'll never know but if I had to do it again I would go to the local flying club and do all the flying while taking some totally unrelated college or university program. There is no doubt that a degree will help you along if you choose an airline career but I don't think it matters much what the degree is in. If you get an aviation degree you're somewhat of a one-trick pony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted September 16, 2003 Author Share Posted September 16, 2003 seeker, I totally agree with you about the degree. Vero Beach is the only program I know of which offers a Degree. Does anyone know of such a program in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av8tr Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 cpdude, I graduated from an aviation college over 10 years ago. At the time it was fully subsidized by the gov't. All we paid was the regular tuition fee. I cannot verify this but I recently heard that Seneca College in Toronto is now offering a degree program along with the regular flight training. Not sure if it's 3 or 4 year program or if it is still subsidized. Might be worth checking it out. Here is a link that might help out. http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/FPR.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dockjock Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 The 3-yr Seneca program will be a 4-yr degree starting next year. Oh wait, its September...starting this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 I'm not sure you're getting my meaning here. I'm saying that you would be better off to get a degree in something completely different from aviation. The first few jobs you get won't require a degree and, in fact, having one could be to your detriment. By the time you are ready for that airline job it's been so long since you got out of school that any advanced training has long since been surpassed by actual experience. Plus since your propective employer won't really care what degree you have why put all your eggs in one basket. Look at all the airline pilots laid off in North America, which do you suppose are better off, the ones with aviation degrees or the ones with some other degree. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Why? Why would you promote a career in aviation to begin with? How could you be so cruel to suggest a career like aviation to anyone? Is it because it has an extreme security? Elevated prestige? Superior lifestyle? Money? What? What? I wasted 4 years of my life going to university. (because Canadian and AC wanted) I have 7 different type ratings, 3 turbo props, 3 light executive jets and one Airbus. Over 8000 hours with over 17 years of experience in this business……….And guess what? I am still sending resumes out. I even applied to a Navajo job. I worked so hard so today my kids would be proud of me. Proud of whom am I and what I do for living. But today they see their dad as an unemployed pilot that made them move from cities to cities in search of “that” secure aviation job. Two years ago I was flying across Atlantic Ocean but today I paint houses to pay the bills. This is the reality of aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 Oh I get your point but I believe there is a much greater value in an established commercial flying program like Seneca College or Flight Safety then at your local flying school. These established programs usually teach beyond the minimum standard covering subjects like CRM, Upset Training etc. If you owned a small charter company with piston twins and maybe some turbine equipment who would you hire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 I believe the subsidy is for residents of Ontario only. I wonder how long one would have to reside in Ontario to qualify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 ...because I believe it is a great career! Some people have been in the wrong place or even right place but at the wrong time and for them and probably you that is unfortunate. Others have put their dreams aside and went into business and have possibly failed as well due to the economic climate. There are no guarantees in life. Would I actively go out and recruit for an aviation career...probably not. But when young people have a passion and a desire who am I to try and kill that passion. I would rather show them how to fulfill it with all the precautions my experience has revealed. The nice thing about getting into aviation with a degree is you have something to fall back onto during tough times and education is never a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JC Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Very good post. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Well.... I'm here to tell you, after graduating from "an established commercial flying program" at a well known Canadian Aviation college, that there isn't a much greater value to it. As for the small charter company - I stand by my statement that the fancy aviation degree will count against you being hired! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyBlazer Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hey max, With all of that flying experience, years of it I am guesing, you proably are aware that the industry has its cycles. This is my 1st layoff, I too am basically doing nothing, but I am not groaning about it, I keep telling myself that if I stay with this gig then this will probably happen at least one more time. Consider it part of the bis and try to keep your chin up... Its gotta get better cause it cant get worse... eeer good luck my freind, try to think positve. SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dizzy Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 What about the University of Western Ontario? They have an aviation program with a degree, but its not an aviation degree. There are a few aviation courses, but its more of a management and administrative degree that can lead to a human resources or accounting career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airway Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 A couple of questions to ask when looking into aviation training. 1. What will the actual degree or diploma say on it? Many 2 year "aviation diploma" programs are offered at colleges across Canada. Some of them provide flight instruction through the college, and some contract the flying instruction out to the local flying club. If the college itself provides the instruction, it usually issues a "aviation diploma" with the college's name on it. If the college contracts out the flying, the student usually gets a "aviation managment diploma", or something like that, from the college and a "aviation diploma" from the flying club. If I were a person hiring, I would rather see a "aviation diploma" issued from an accredited college. I know of 3 "aviation diplomas" issued by Colleges: Selkirk, Seneca, and Mount Royal. There are more. 2. Is it an "applied degree or a Bachelors degree" An applied degree usually takes 3 years and a bachelors degree takes 4. Universities and some colleges issue bachelors degrees. If you want a degree to fall back on, many higher paying jobs require a bachelors degree, and will not recognize an applied degree. I have heard that there is somewhere in Canada that you can get a bachelors degree in aviation. I can't remember where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 I really and truly hope there is going to be another sun rise after this long and dark night. Thanks for the encouraging words. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CDB Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 CPDude, As noted above The University of Western Ontario has a 4 year bachelor's program where students earn a business degree with an area of concentration in Commercial Aviation Management (I graduated this past April ) It is really the only program of its kind in Canada where students earn a true university degree while obtaining their ICPL + Class 4 Instructor's rating. More info here: http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/deansoffice/acs/aviation/ Any other questions lemme know. Oh yea; hello all, long time reader, first time poster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Howdy CDB, welcome to the zoo. Congrats on your recently obtained degree, and licence to the wacky world of aviation. Are you working now? Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CDB Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Thx Mitch The neat thing about the program is it gives you the option of staying on the business/management side of things, or the flying side. I was never really interested in flying for a living so I've always headed towards a "business" career, not necessarily in commercial aviation. As such, I'm currently working for a consulting company that deals with business aircraft. The flying was more of a passion of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted September 17, 2003 Author Share Posted September 17, 2003 Thanks CDB, I think your suggestion sounds wonderful and has the protection of a dual career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CDB Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 You're very welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Too bad you're already working... I hear a certain Canadian "flag carrier" might be lookin' for a new crew at the top soon... They could use someone who's passed a few aviation business exams. Ok, ok... I'm just kidding, I know someone must've passed one or two exams to have been able to get all the employees lined up in front of the water cannon.... not to mention that purple paint brilliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest CDB Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Funny you mentioned passing exams and running an airline... We had Steve Smith (Westjet, ZIP, great guy and IMO up there with the best of the best airline execs) come and speak to our class last year and at one point he drew a demand and supply diagram on the board, and got confused because he couldn't figure out which line went up and which one went down. He erased it and drew it again a couple of times and finally ended up getting the 2 lines backwards. The class laughed quietly and didn't say anything, but I think it was pretty good evidence that the best people to run an airline aren't necessarily the bean counters, but rather great people than can inspire others by clearly forming a vision, and aligning everyone else around that common goal. Anyways I think he's a really neat guy CDB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Airway Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 A couple of questions to ask when looking into aviation training. 1. What will the actual degree or diploma say on it? Many 2 year "aviation diploma" programs are offered at colleges across Canada. Some of them provide flight instruction through the college, and some contract the flying instruction out to the local flying club. If the college itself provides the instruction, it usually issues a "aviation diploma" with the college's name on it. If the college contracts out the flying, the student usually gets a "aviation managment diploma", or something like that, from the college and a "aviation diploma" from the flying club. If I were a person hiring, I would rather see a "aviation diploma" issued from an accredited college. I know of 3 "aviation diplomas" issued by Colleges: Selkirk, Seneca, and Mount Royal. There are more. 2. Is it an "applied degree or a Bachelors degree" An applied degree usually takes 3 years and a bachelors degree takes 4. Universities and some colleges issue bachelors degrees. If you want a degree to fall back on, many higher paying jobs require a bachelors degree, and will not recognize an applied degree. I have heard that there is somewhere in Canada that you can get a bachelors degree in aviation. I can't remember where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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