Par88 Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 So many responses and so few "jabs". Good on you. Thank you Greg for leading the charge with what seems to be, for the most part, a likable merger scenario. I'm sorry that somebody decided it necessary to take a poke at you but as usual you handled it perfectly and with class. The AEF may be highly un-scientific but the more idea's and "frank" discussion on the topic, the sooner this will be behind us. Somebody suggested there was a problem with the question I posted because it suggests a winner and a looser. IMHO, an arbitrators ruling on one property vs. the other getting to fly the "proposed-new" a/c is career halting at the loosing property. Stagnation/layoffs etc., what a terrible place to be. I am "post 95" and early thirty's, which means almost 30 years to help shape the future of our industry. Somehow, someway, the "not so scorned" future of pilots within the AC family will have to take control of our collective futures if a reasonable career expectation is to be re-established. Lets face it, today neither group has any idea how good or how bad the next stage will be. Although our union leaders work tremendously hard and give up vast amounts of their time on our behalf, I respectfully suggest, that the bitter past is too close to home for either side to consider a reconsilliation with the other. Union leaders on both sides should sollicit a group of pilots from both sides, representing all walks of life to democratically find the best possible solution and put this to bed. The final task would then be democratically elected representitives of a new, much stronger, pilot association for AC. No more scope, no more whip saw, no more lawyers pitting pilots against pilots against the same corporation. Don't stop talking about it now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par88 Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 Sorry I forgot to mention........ "Skirt", I hope everybody see's you're post below regarding DH8 vs. fryer at Mc'Ds. I wish you and all the others at each property a speedy return. Best Regards Par88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 " take control of our collective futures if a reasonable career expectation is to be re-established " " Career expectations ".........a very interesting concept......lets look at my own case as an example........years ago..and I mean years....from the day I discovered flying, all I ever wanted to do was be a pilot for Air Canada...I didn't want to work for CP Air..didn't even apply there..I wanted Air Canada.... even sent them an application before my first lesson. I eventually paid my dues, worked my way through the system and finally got hired. For 5 years, twice a month I sent applications, update letters, phone calls, visits to Toronto flight Ops, etc etc etc... my file must have been 3 feet thick when I got hired..but I knew what I wanted....literally worked my butt off..did the mandatory 30 days a month working towards my " career expectation "..and I finally " made it ". only to spend the next 10 years as a second officer ,oh well.didn't matter..I was here....and time would eventually reward me for my efforts... Now lets contrast this scenario with another individual......we worked side by side for close to 3 years as instructors.......he never ONCE had any aspirations to join an airline.....never ONCE did a thing to persue a career as an airline pilot......all he ever wanted, his sole " career expectation" was to be an instructor...a number of years later the school went broke for whatever reason,,,,,,,,,he looked elsewhere for jobs ...and eventually landed at Great Lakes, aka Air Ontario. aka Jazz........Now lets jump 20 or so years into the future & the Picher disaster. Guess who now wants my my job? ...wants to grab my seniority number?...who is now one of the most vocal "senior" Jazz pilots that does nothing but incite discontent & unrest amoungst the young, gullible, pliable unending string of 20 year olds who are just trying to move their way up the ladder like every one before them did?...follow me kids..I'll show you the easy way to the top !! This individual & others like him had their chance like the rest of us did wayyyyyyyyyy back then,,,,,for whatever reason, they chose their own route... had their own " career expectations" .....but now he / they want in....want their place in the rightfull hierarchy of aviation, retort they have paid their dues.....are just as experienced...( and they probably are )...BUT...when the "I deserve that seniority number"..starts, I have a tendency to get annoyed !!... To those select senior few causing all the stir at Jazz...you sir's picked your route in this career,,,,,,life itself is an endless string of choices..I made mine...you made yours...as it turns out I made the right ones..you didn't...go get your seniority number some where else !! If the present day Jazz pilots wonder why some of us old guys were then & probably always will be so adament against Picher...hopefully this small example might shed some light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par88 Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 That is why I say your view has to be represented. Should the career expectations with those of us at this company be impeded because of the notion that some don't deserve to be at "the top"? You are absolutly right in the suggestion that some people stand on the shoulders of giants, however as time goes on, more people are hurt than rewarded by protecting the top from these "coasters". I don't deny for a second that some would be unduly rewarded by a merger of any sort but at the chance of protecting the interests of those who will earn their spot at the top, I think we all owe it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 How are your "career expectations " being impeded..?.I agree that every one has a right to earn a chance at the so called top spot...when your turn comes,go for the gusto like every one did before you...but why should any one have the right to jump the cue ?..I seem to recall a few years back, every connector pilot had a chance to earn their " spot at the top ", with a guaranteed slide in the back door to Air Canada when we were hiring from the connectors only.... the ones with "vision" jumped at the opportunity....to them I say congratulations...... For the ones still waiting for a " free ride" to the top...spending untold thousands of $$$ in legal fees.....Why should those who made that choice a few years back....who made that career decision you were obviously afraid to.....why should they suffer for your in-decision?.....to those I say.......good luck & good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hi Par88 (I don't know what your handle means but it sounds like my kinda golf. ) I am assuming by your posts that you are with JAZZ. I have sent this proposal to my LEC chair in YVR and we'll see where it goes from there. I believe that a large majority of pilots in both ACPA and ALPA would support such a proposal. I also think that there is resistance from the leaders of both unions because of our acrimonious history and the law suit. My gut feeling though, to move this ahead will require a grass roots movement in the JAZZ group. I would suggest that you or someone else get a petition started, talk it up at LEC meetings, and write letters to your MEC. I am convinced that if something like this doesn't get done we'll be facing issue after issue like the current one again and again. I know I'm repeating myself, but I think this is important. We now have a situation where you spend about 60,000 dollars on 2 to 4 years of secondary education, get about 8 years experience flying, finally achieve the goal of getting on with a major and after 4 or 5 years there you are still making $40,000 per year. Of the people that start the process it's a relatively small percentage that are that fortunate. This proposal of a combined list does not by any means solve all the problems, but it is a start. Best of luck Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Jaydee, Aren't you the lucky one. Not because you were successful at landing the career you wanted but because you knew what you wanted. As I've watched the kids in the neighbourhood grow up and head off to various post-secondary educational facilities they all share the same uncertainties. They wonder what the future holds. Of all the dozens of classmates the graduated high school with my first two kids only two - TWO - knew what they wanted to do for a career. I found out yesterday that one has changed direction and the other is looking at other options. So for you to know what you wanted to do at a young age is very rare - and I'd call it lucky. But there is more to your post that I wish to comment on: I don't like the connotation that you deserve something special. For example you say "I eventually paid my dues, worked my way through the system and finally got hired." What about the pilot who also tried and tried to get the AC interview and did not know that it took two letter per month or chocolates or flowers or special gifts or whatever else worked in the past? What about the pilots who have no parents in the business? What about the pilots who worked three jobs to pay for flying lessons? I'd say that you were both lucky (to know what you wanted at an early age) and fortunate. Fortunate that you had some guidance on how to pursue your goal. (Tell me, who suggested to you that twice a month applications, update letters, phone calls, visits to Toronto flight Ops, etc etc etc was the way to do it back then?) And what about this "DUES" thing? It's prejudicial but I'd say that the pilot working years in the artic or years pumping floats every morning and afternoon paid a lot more 'DUES" than the pilot bouncing around a circuit for thousands of hours. I guess we might not agree on how to define 'dues'. But your definition of 'dues' is not as important as your arrogance. I may be all wrong here but from your post I detect a bit of arrogance that your 'dues' are worth more than a pilot working at Jazz. Simply because you got to AC first. May I suggest, Jaydee, that just as there are over 3000 different 'paid my dues' stories at the mainline there are over 1600 'still paying the dues' stories at Jazz. The fact is that luck and good fortune play a large part in anyone's aviation career. It's fortune that you picked AC. It might be a bit of luck if you still have a good job next year. One last nit to pick: Like so many who work for the largest airline in Canada you seem to put yourself on a pedestal. Sort of like a pedistal of past dues as if you had 100% control of your career path. It's rather revolting to the hundreds, no, make that thousands of pilots who have applied to AC and been turned down. For every 'I've paid my dues" Air Canada mainline pilot there are probably four or five 'I've paid more dues than him and still didn't get hired' non Air Canada mainline pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par88 Posted July 9, 2003 Author Share Posted July 9, 2003 IMHO, if either property is given the right to fly the next batch of aircraft in question the "career expectations" of the other pilots are not only impeded but shattered. ie; A reduction of the "mainline fleet" to approx. 130 something aircraft would be devestating to the junior members. A subsequent blocking of any proposed and all "jet a/c" at Jazz would stagnate growth or opportunity for anybody who wishes to only do that flying. I only suggest that our future as a divided group will be in the interest of fewer people as time moves on. I'm not trying to re-hash or undue the past. GDR, I am at Jazz. The only gain I would see with a merger of our groups is the opportunity to choose a path ie; long haul or short haul without worrying about the next round of corporate "whip-saw" and "what if's". My original question was posted with the intent of seeing if such a grassroots movment would be overwhelmingly opposed by either group. Ideas have to start somewhere. Gone till Friday eve. so this string will be lost by the time I get back. I hope it bears some progressive discussions and thanx for joining in. Best Regards Par88 (with the way I've been playing my "irons" lately my golf score is not far behind) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Let's assume I'm a Regional pilot some years ago who actually enjoys the demands of frequent takeoff/landings and with the benefit of foresight, anticipates significant changes in the airline industry with increasing emphasis on short-haul, lower capacity jets. Flying for "mainline" isn't, for me, the "be all and end all". (As an aside...kind of like...the best lawyers don't necessarily work at the big firms). I decide that as a "career move" staying with the regional is a good choice; a decision validated by the decision of management to start moving certain routes to my company to operate. Suddenly,I'm confronted by tactics adopted by "the big boys" to protect their more junior pilots; first merger and then, more importantly, scope. My career aspirations are frustrated by their extraction from the company of the concession that "regional jets" won't be given to "regional airlines". We're thrown the proverbial bone; "New hires will be from Regionals first." Oh...thanks. And now ...years later...we're an ungrateful bunch trying to climb to the top on the shoulders of others. What? Isn't there something here about calling the kettle black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I find it interesting, that at a time when it may be suggested that the "Farm Team" may have some future in the industry, that some "NHL'rs" are suddenly interested in bottom of the farm team list. I can remember a few years back when the "NHL" was drafting, that it would only take 40% of the farm team members only upon successful completion of the rigorous training camp to be bottom of the list. Interesting, how the attitude towards the farm team can change. Does anyone honestly think that if the table was turned and the NHL was at an advantage of any sort, that they would want the same exchange of tail end to tail end? DOH is the the only way IMHO. I think if we see the NHL shrink a whole lot and the farm team expand that there will suddenly be a whole lot of NHL'ers interested in DOH. Interesting how attitudes can sway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 There are many of us including myself who were in support of combining lists in the manner proposed before Picher, and have been ever since. Any other solution including DOH of any kind is going to produce winners and losers. This proposal has no losers and in the end everybody wins. To be honest if a DOH list was enacted between JAZZ and AC pilots tomorrow it wouldn't affect me at all. I have no other interest in this than the long term benefit of both pilot groups and the company. It's time that pilots in both groups let the past go and started worrying more about the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HPT-TOUR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 So let me get this straight, after Picher I could have slid in the back door and that`s OK, but to want to follow the binding arbitration that your group started is not? Please explain your logic! or are you another acpa pilot thats drunk and pi$$ed off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 fyi....I discovered flying in my mid twenties. I came from a large family where my dad used to make $60 a week to keep us kids in food & clothing.....definitely no golden spoon here ....I didn't know a soul in the airline business when I started ....I worked 60 hours a week at a sales job in order to pay for all my flying lessons, ratings etc, then quit that job to go work for a flying school for no money, just one measly free flying hour a day, in order to get ahead. ......I worked long & hard, actually figured out myself that 2 letters, applications a month, could only help me, not hurt me..and made the effort to send them relentlessly.When Air Canada hired me,they knew darn well they had a candidate that really wanted to work for them and only them and one who was gratefull for the opportunity. ....I still have every letter I received back from Air Canada...I just counted them.......23 letters stating basically.....keep trying.... so I did ....and yes you are right, there are thousands of " paid my dues" stories out there....and yes, my "dues" are no better than others...but I DID pay them, ......all by myself..and continued to pay them as a 10 year second officer....none of this right seat entry stuff that happens now a days. So excuse me if it irks me when someone wants to undermine my position simply because they haven't made the cut yet or by trying to jump the cue through legal means....or are just plain unwilling to make the required sacrifices. The simple fact of the matter is..not all will make it to the mainline.....they simply don't need 10,000 pilots in a country this size.....you say arrogance...maybe.....dunno really...but if that is being arrogant...so be it...color me red! Or is it just jealousy from whomever? 10 million people buy lotterie tickets every week.......very few win.....I just thank my lucky stars every time I go to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Interesting too that no matter how benign the proposal, there are always individuals who will try and find a negative slant to it. And if you can't find a negative slant about the proposal, by all means dredge one up from the past or even invent one if you have to. But at all costs, avoid doing anything that has even a ghost of chance at creating something positive. This is precisely the attitude, on both sides of the table, that hinders creative and positive possibilities. Greg's proposal has precisely zero negative impact on anyone, yet holds out promise for the future and provides some immediate protection for everyone under worst case scenarios. If you can't climb on board a proposal like that, then perhaps it's time to take a little personal inventory and check your motives. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I am in the same boat GDR..a merger of Jazz & AC wouldn't cost me one seniority number......to me its the principal of the issue..Even though I may disagree with the Keller award....at least the Canadian pilots played in the same ball park and therefore have a leg to stand on when it comes to merging lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 "Greg's proposal has precisely zero negative impact on anyone, yet holds out promise for the future and provides some immediate protection for everyone under worst case scenarios." Which brings my point home perfectly(And I knew Neo, I would see you on this one!)! . Why were the NHL'ers not so interested in "zero negative impact" on the Farm Team when things were not going so good for the Farm Team? Can you answer me that? As far as a personal inventory, well lets just say "once bitten". Good day to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest floatrr Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 "I have no other interest in this than the long term benefit of both pilot groups and the company." Please see reply to Neo above. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hi floatr In the first place that was then and this is now. If there were mistakes made before why would we want to perpetuate them. I would ask though, how do you know that the NHL as you call us weren't interested in a proposal like this. The only choice that we had was Picher or nothing. If either Picher or the Regional pilots had suggested a dual tail end list it would have been accepted by the mainline group. As I said, rightly or wrongly it was Picher that was rejected not the Regional pilots. Neither group has ever been given the opportunity to accept or reject such a proposal. I know there are very hard feelings, and believe it or not I do understand the frustration and disappointment of the Regional pilots but I repeat, isn't it time to put it behind us and move ahead. The longer this is allowed to fester the greater the damage that will be done to both our groups. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 "Neither group has ever been given the opportunity to accept or reject such a proposal." ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Just how do you address the many many pilots at AC that recieved ATP's & pilot seniority without the necessary flying time or lack of "paid dues"? What about those that were hired on the "equity hiring program", didn't cut the mustard but, recieved multiple courses to get them to standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Why would you be shy about something that has no negative impact NOW, and only positive impact for the future? What difference does it make what mistakes were made in the past? It only matters whether we're going to continue to make the same mistakes for the future. And thus far, based on the kind of thinking you cling to, those mistakes will continue to haunt us. To answer the direct question you put to me, no I cannot answer it. I have no idea what the reasons were, or even if you have framed the question based on what really happened. But to anyone seeking to move into a more progressive future, it's obvious that the answer to the question is not relevant. Who cares who did what, when they did it, or why? These issues are unresolvable, and the debate non-pruductive. As Greg wisely points out, deal with the things that you can bring to a successful resolution. Trying to pin down responsibility for specific episodes in this epic sage is futile. Do you FOR ONE SECOND imagine that both sides can't point to examples of behavior by the other side that was detrimental to them? Only someone who is blindly partisan could ignore that fact that serious mistakes and betrayals took place on both sides of the divide. I say, acknowledge that indisputable truth, and move on to better choices. And you have a good day too, neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leftbase Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Yep, I'd say arrogance! The very nature of the industry in Canada pretty much gaurantees that NOBODY gets to even the regional level without paying a ton of "dues"...there will be exceptions at all levels of course for nepotism and so on, but I generally I think that's true. You may choose to think your story somehow makes you different, you may choose to think that anyone who DARES to question your hard-luck path, determination, true grit, etc etc ad nauseaum, is just jealous...but in the end you just "won the lottery". (Your analogy.) Hopefully nothing will happen to you to make you realize you haven't quite got the complete control of life you seem to feel you have. But please, spare the sermonizing...we've all been there, done that! There may be a few in Jazz who really, deliberately want to make progress at your expense..but guess what, there are a few of those types at AC too...c-ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Thats a question to ask management...or Ottawa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Hi Defcon I'm not sure what you mean by the ????. To the best of my knowledge neither MEC has proposed the idea combining the seniority lists in the manner that has been suggested here. Therefore it would follow that neither of our memberships have ever had the opportunity to vote on it. You mention below that you have no appetite for such a solution. Out of curiosity what would be your opposition to it. Cheers Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydee Posted July 10, 2003 Share Posted July 10, 2003 byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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