Moon The Loon Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 ...compared the average pilot with a "biscuit shooter". And the responses bit. Canadian aviation is really an embarrasment. The cabin crew is as integral a part of the airborne crew as the flight crew. When the flight crew have done all they can to get the aircraft on the ground, it is left to the cabin crew entirely to get our passengers/customers/whatever out of the burning hull. This has been demonstrated time after time. I as a pilot am deeply offended by any slight that portrays the "biscuit shooter" as any less a part of the team as me. Pilot: Please sir, can I have more? Sir: You want MORE? I'll give you MORE... (Unwritten: bend over and receive "more") For those who argue that we as pilots have paid more for our training and experience, I have no answer. Most of my understanding lies in career expectations. Most pilots get into the business with a retirement attitude - i.e. here for the long haul. That can also be said of our engineering brethern. We get paid to break 'em; they get paid to fix 'em. Most flight attendants are in the job for the short term. Please - emphasis on tne word "most" i.e. > 90%. Just because "We" are in it for the long haul is no reason to slag on those in it for the short haul. When push comes to shove, and (Oh GAWD, how I hate this phrase: ) AT THE END OF THE DAY we choose our professions one by one. Some of us pay; some of us don't. That's the way the world works. Leonardo diCaprio didn't work his way to the top of Hollywood through seniority. Get with it folks. So whether you work for Air Canada or Air Malta: it's just a job. Treat it as such. For the rest of you: LEAVE OFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Most flight attendants are in the job for the short term. Please - emphasis on tne word "most" i.e. > 90%. You obviously don't work for AC, do you..... Seriously, though, customer service (cs)jobs are hard on a person, that's why a turn over in staff occurs in most cs jobs. I think that their are some great older cs people at AC. But, a lot need to leave the job well before retirement age and they're the ones that make all the headlines. What do SWA and WJ and CJ and JG pay their cs people? Not a lot, hence the turnover, and the more youthful, less jaded people. No one works in the fast food industry expecting to retire from the golden arches into the golden years, why is it in the cs areas of the aviation industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 Perhaps at AC and some other operations, the <90% is inaccurate. But there are a huge number of other operators who use CCM's other than AC. Please think "Big Picture" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Please think "Big Picture" Given the clientel of the AEF, I think its right to assume that most readers are AC, Jazz employees, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 You're probably spot on about that. Mustn't let the Italian Red interfere with my manners. I do stand by my original premise about the back-end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 You have to realize that a lot of the resentment being expressed these days has to do with the low wages on the RJ and samll jet that AC may buy, where FOs may earn less than FAs, which doesn't sound right, anyway you say it. Also remember that FAs tried a couple of years ago to have the Human RIghts commision say that they were being discriminated against and that they should be paid the same as FOs (before the RJ wage thing)...funny, they aren't running the the HRC now to be paid the same as RJ FOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 George---why? Why should the RJ FO newbie receive more by way of compensation than a max scale FA? Implicit in your post is the assumption that one JOB is inherently inferior to the other whereas in fact both employees are providing a service for which they are compensated in an amount dictated by factors extraneous to the nature (and quality) of the service provided. Is a pipefitter engaging in tasks which are intrinsically of less or more value than an FO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted July 3, 2003 Author Share Posted July 3, 2003 Agreed somewhat although I didn't mean to get into a discussion of pay. One gets what one negotiates. UpperDeck below goes down that road below. But on that subject, C3 used to have check pursers who made more than senior F/O's. Now that always seemed an inequity to me, but thankfully, I never became a senior F/O! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 "why?" Just because! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Personally I do believe that F/O's definitly should make more then F/A's and that is because they have put in far more money and time to becoming a pilot as to which an F/A has most certainly not. Education, education, education will give you better and higher paying jobs ! Peanuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 When the air transat plane was gliding into the azores the pax when interviewed stated that the f/as were crying over the p.a. I'm not trying to deminish what i'm sure was a horrifying situation, but I am pointing out that when the sh** hits the fan its the pilots who save the day and the f/a is just along for the ride. Even if you take away all the years of training and licensing I can't fathom any reason why a f/a should make more than any pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest surf1 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 o.k. so let's see....In 1000 flights, how many breakfasts are served vs. how many pax are pulled out of a burning hull?? These folks can be trained in three weeks if need be so it is not rocket science in what they do.... The are important, but in pains me in that they 'mostly' feel it is beneath them to serve meals and coffee....Let alone with a smile.... I'ts part of the job and one that they will do many, many more times than the 'burning hull' item.... If you don't like the job and can't do it with a smile, leave!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 But then, what do you know? Back to the other forum with Marelli, you sycophant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I don't think it's helpful to demean the role of the FAs in order to make the case that the pilots are underpaid. I happen to agree that with the training and experience that it takes to be an RJ F/O the position has become grossly underpaid. However, just because the RJ F/O position is underpaid it doesn't necessarily follow that FAs are overpaid. Don't forget, they've just taken a hit in the wallet to go along with all the productivity concessions as well as us. Greg Robinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 I find it somewhat amazing that when Mr Milton wants to cut costs to be more competitive with the LCCs of Canada and then Uncle CLive boasts that the total compensation for his 737 Captains is approx $170 k which is as good as or better than AC 737 Captains. So the wage scales are in the same order of magnitude. WJ mechanics are paid the same as AC ones. Then we come to the FAs, CSSAs and Ramp people. Lets compare their wages. Jetsgo was advertising $19/hr, 90 hour/mnth guarantee for FAs. I wonder how much their CSSA make? Slighty above minimum wage? If AC wants to compete with the LCCs of Canada they need to start bringing the wages and benefits in line with the market. Stop the Canadian tradition of bringing the bottom guy up and knocking the top wage earner down. Pay what the skills are worth, the supply and demand justify and reward your highly skilled labour. Then you'll see a competitive airline. After all the restructuring, all they did was knock off the same amount (% wise) from each group. No realignment, no indepth thought. How typically Canadian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Ya right in the first place let's see you stand at the ticket counter in irops and deal with the customers for $10 hr,And you can work on the ramp for $9.00 short handed you and three other guys can turn 737 and a dash8 in 40 min, I don't think the pilot works short handed? what a great idea lets have one pilot per aircraft the rest of us bottom feders work short why not the pilots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rance Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Greg; By saying that a f/a is overpaid is not demeaning or meant to be,just stating an opinion. In my opinion I don't feel the f/a job should pay 50,60 or 70k which some senior f/a make or made at the mainline.I do agree they shouldn't be compared to f/o wages instead it should be compared to what simular jobs are being paid at other companies.That being the case,wj and jets go are right on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Wizard, I have tossed bags, and worked behind the counter. I agree, it can be a tough go. I saved my cash, worked my tail off, and got a pilot's LICENCE. Off to the north, learned alot, did not kill myself, (or anybody else), and after years of trying, got accepted by an airline. Thru this process, many flight test, medicals, exams and real life emergencies were dealt with. Now, if I have a bad day at work, you will read about it. Responsibility is huge, and we get paid for it. I am in no way demeaning your line of work, you have done that by calling yourself a bottom feeder. The opportunity is open to all, save your cash, and enjoy that first solo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Hey what's up I know i'm not a bottom feeder but that's what everybody thinks of the none skilled in the airlines, I enjoy my work I enjoy the people I Work with, I have my private and I love to fly but I feel I got in to it to late and it cost to much to finish, they can't take away my private I always look forword to going up and flying in the blue skies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Does WJ or CJ or JG have irrops? I bet they do. Do their "$10/hr" CSSAs deal with it? I bet they do..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 The point I'm trying to make is some get paid more than others but somebody who has never worked as a cssa or fa or ramp non skilled job but these jobs are demanding in other ways that a lot of folks don't understand and should not be saying take money away from these people because they don't have a skilled job,I have my private and love to fly,I got into flying to late to make it a job and it cost to much with the money I make and I was not born with a silver spoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peanuts Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Pretty big word for you don't you think ??? Go fly a kyte you morose thing. Oops, I just stooped to your level. I do beg your pardon,.....however not today. Just so you know. I know plenty. Problably a hell of a lot more then you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Who are you to say take money from my job because it a non skilled job have you ever worked one of these jobs for more than ten years. What is the turn over rate at the LCC high I bet because nobody wants to deal with yelling pasengers for $10 hr and when the money stops coming in for the LCC and there is no profit sharing checks lets see how happy our LCC folks are,The airlines do 360s all the so don't bet on the LCC to last forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1V2Vgo Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Point taken, thank you for the reply. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 It was nice talking to you. Take care and happy landings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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