when will you learn?

[Guest Juliette Delta]

It is completely beyond belief that someone would post such a comment as "Thanks ACPA". Thanks for what? not forcing the compny to close down? Did they thank you or any of the othe 7 unions for reaching agreements and ratifying them?

Wake up!! There is a group of employees at AC that don't care about the health of the company or the health of their fellow employees, and you're thanking them for not killing you all? Pathetic.

There is no excuse for ACPA's behaviour, and not for anyone else who feels the need to pat them on the back. Playing russian roulette with your jobs is not a good thing.

What all you people should be doing is telling them that if they feel the need to try to force the company into the sewer in the future, then you will encourage your union and all the other unions in the mix to start speaking out about the single minded self serving tactic of ACPA. Take the first step in making sure that the public and the creditors know that anytime that ACPA tries to force their hand that they are ONLY dealing with ACPA, not all the unions together, and let them, not you, take the hits that are sure to come.

When your child tries burns down you house you don't thank him and say "good job" because he put away the matches...this time.

[Guest jeanmermoz]

You must be from Jazz...and a pilot at that...

[Mitch Cronin]

What Russian Roulette? They had a vote on their TA, just like the rest of us. They voted and accepted it, just like the rest of us.

One big difference was the arbitration ruling that came out just prior to their vote, which had the potential to sway people's vote... So their union leaders, wisely I think, counseled them to cool down before voting. Doesn't sound like any attempt to drive the company into the sewer to me.

[Guest Juliette Delta]

Why must I be from Jazz? Because I have principals and respect all the hard work that most of the employees have put forth to ensure the survival of AC?

Perhaps you are ACPA? Perhaps you work at WJ. I don't know, and don't care. But if you think that the kind of behaviour that ACPA displays is good for the future of AC then you are a good fit for the ACPA group.

The employees at AC need to stand up and let it be known that they won't allow ACPA to ruin thir lives, regardless of where they come from. Don't pat them on the back and hope that by being nice they won't try to screw you again.

[Cargo Agent]

I can't say I'm too impressed with ACPA as an entity. The entity seems to always push things "down to the wire". As an outsider I view it's dealing with other pilot groups as unfair at best.

But it seems to me that the individuals within were fully aware of the seriousness of the situation and showed it with an 87% vote in favour. This is one of the highest vote's in favour amongst all the unions, and from a group that is likely to take the biggest financial hit.

So, thanks Air Canada pilot's, if not so much the association.

[Guest Juliette Delta]

ok...they voted on their TA....Yeah for them!! lets send balloons!

You've already forgotten the May 31 deadline and the May 28th deadline before that. How about threatenning to vote NO to the TA unless Lorden reviews the Keller paper? Of course he says he'll look at it. He didn't want the No vote to be because he didn't.

How many times do you have to be hit over the head before you stop saying "Thank you may I have another".

Wake up.

[Guest jeanmermoz]

To add to this, the participation from the membership was 87% which I believe is the highest or one the highest participation from any group. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Guest 108-2]

Exactly, thanks for what? For not taking the ball and going home? For doing what everyone has already done? Without all the fan fare I might add. They are employees just like everyone else. The company has to stop treating them like they walk on water and even part it if the situation requires it. Yes I work at Jazz

[Guest rance]

Hi Mitch;

In your earlier post you said:

"What Russian Roulette? They had a vote on their TA, just like the rest of us. They voted and accepted it, just like the rest of us".

The difference is that all of acpas postering in the newspaper and threats to vote down the t/a cost the airline alot of money.

The newscast reporters were saying how a no vote would liquidate the company.

I personally know 4 people that chose to fly on nw out of dtw to hnl,just because they were afraid of the pilots voting down the t/a and leaving them stranded.

So all of acpas rantings did have an effect on the company and not one other union group did this. I feel that is where alot of the hostility from other groups was coming from and i agree it was russian roulette with all our jobs because it affected the companies bottom line.

And lets not confuse issues the anger with acpa was over their senority which had nothing to do with the t/a that we all faced.

[wizard]

Ya thanks for what? I 100% agree with you the sooner the company understands that the pilots don't run the show and there just like all the other groups the better.

[Mitch Cronin]

Well, sure, some of them were scaring us... And some potential customers too I suppose, but not all. My brother is here now, having just flown last week full fare on AC from Australia... I told him not to worry, 'cause that's the inside scoop I had.

Anyway, they did what they felt was right. I didn't like the business about mixing the seniority issue with the vote on the TA either, but I guess some of them felt that was the only teeth they had.

All in all, 87% came through with their hopes for the future. I say, good on 'em. And good on the rest of us too. Now I wait with baited breath for the next moves... I'm anxious to see some positive changes!

Cheers,

Mitch

[Guest easyjazz]

Juliette Delta...Great Post and even greater response!!

Can only hope the acpa sandbox temperment rewards them with the removal of their toy's.

There are times when spoiled children need to be spanked:)

Any takers? lol

[ChicoChico]

Okay then:

Thanks ALPA

Thanks CUPE

Thanks IAM

Thanks CAW

Thanks Teamsters

Thanks AMICUS

Thanks Transport and General Workers Union

Thanks Flight dispatchers

Thanks to all non unionized employee groups at AC who took forced reductions as well.

I apologize if I left anyone out.

Oh yeah and Thanks ACPA...

This has more to do with the fact that ACPA was the last to ratify. ACPA also gave the highest percentage back to the company (combined with the already higher pay for pilots our actual dollar contribution is quite large). The reason we ratified last is that we we were the last to reach a TA and that was largely due to the fact that we would not let the the company off the hook for signing a contract with ALPA that was in violation of our existing one. At the eleventh hour plus 1:45 when we still would not sign our own death warrant, an agreement was reached that upheld our original contract provisions in respect of scope.

Now we would have and should have ratified the TA with little opposition had Mr. Keller not released his contentious seniority award just prior to the clsing date for the vote.

The Union leaders, who were quite aware of the overwhelming outrage the OAC pilots felt as a result of the Kllr list, wisely cautioned its members to hold their vote till Mr. Lordon heard our plea. The fear was that many would express their rage by voting no - and once a no vote is cast electronically, its a done deal.

Clearly the Union leadership's advice was sound and the results of the vote speak for itself.

So there you have it. Its unfortunate that there are commercial ramifications to the negative publicity these things generated. However like most moral dilemmas there is rarely a black and white answer.

I can sleep at night knowing my conscience is clear on what the AC pilots did this past week.

Many will benefit (hopefully) because ALL AC employees have pulled together to make this thing fly....

[Guest PortTack]

you must be a putz.....

[Guest jazzplayer]

Chico chico, estas muy loco.

[ChicoChico]

Herr Jazz

...und Sie sind auch, mein Freund

CC

[Jaydee]

" Likely take the biggest hit "??????.....lets see........we have the Jazz pilots who would sell out their whole future and the future of every pilot in Canada.......today and forever..by proving to the entire piloting community in North America they will prostitute themselves ,by under bidding on an airplane they knew full well was protected in another union contract ...I mean....it would be a travesty for them to have to graduate to the mainline when their turn came....like EVERY OTHER PILOT BEFORE THEM!!!....talk about spoiled brats from the GIMME generation who can't wait their turn...........or the OCP pilots who actually get a pay RAISE when all is said and done..( and they think thats fair....lolololol.....or maybe even ANY of the other unions who gave up less than the cost of a sell off cruise fare.....meanwhile...OAC pilots are literally being slaughtered right, left and center at every turn...entire careers being ruined.....and then ungratefull idiots like JulietDelta have the GD nerve to complain because we fought back for what was fair, when we were literally being raped with a baseball bat in the process!!!.......its been said ACPA has a sandbox.....well at least we paid for it through many years of hard work & tough negotiating ( which we forfeited most of it with the TA which just saved your A** btw...) We are now the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America & the Star Alliance.....TYVM Jazz for under cutting us...you just slit your own throat...be assured tho, that in the mean time we will do our best to keep the sandbox clear of cat sh*t from the likes of Juliet Delta !!

[Guest mareli]

Last I checked, ACPA ratified their TA with 87%. It seems like a pretty strong vote in favour of keeping the company alive. And, no, I'm not an ACPA member.

[Guest Eclipse]

When you divide $250,000,000 by 3100 pilot it comes out to about $80,000 per pilot in pay cuts and changes to working conditions.

That's why ACPA was having a hard time to swallow these cuts. Did any other group even come close to this? I'm glad we accepted the TA but the rest of the employee's gave very little compared to the pilots.

[Guest AME]

I wasn't going to, but what the hey

Didn't, then CALPA, under bid Air Nova to get the RJs in the first place? If memory serves me they offered to fly them for something like 50k from the left seat (which went up in the next contract)

I have to say that the last bit of respect I may have had for your groups is about gone (that's for the groups, I still respect the job and many individuals)

If you could see past the end of your nose, you would realize you're being played like a fiddle, and from the side lines it's quite entertaining to watch

I would like to think that someday this will all be a "remember when" story, but I doubt I live that long.

Later

[Guest Peanuts]

Jadydee did you forget to take your prozac this morning,...again ????

And by the way, a little while back it was me who mentioned that it is Jazz who has been getting "raped" by ACPA and their all high and mighty attitude.

Don't bother changing words around anymore for many of us at ACPA and ALPA KNOW THE TRUTH.

Since my posting where I had stated that, I have since enjoyed being on this forum. Seen some interesting debating etc. I have stopped being bitter and was looking forward to us all working together towards a stronger AC. However with the likes of yourself it is enough to make me vomit !

I apologize to everyone else on who might be reading this. It is my response to this induvidual who simply can't grow up, subsequently aggrivating many many people like myself.

Jaydee go home and cry to mom, because all those mean bullies are out to get only you !

[Guest AME]

You should realize that 80k is more than anyone else makes and in some cases twice as much, so to whine about a 80k CUT and expect anyone to care is at best obtuse.

[Guest jazzplayer]

Your sandbox and your birthright, you could do us all a favour and drop dead anytime

[Guest Peanuts]

Eclipse not wanting to sound rude but most of the AC pilots make a phenomenol amount more per year then most of the Jazz drivers. Therefore, it may seem that AC pilots took a big hit but think about it if we took that wage cut we would have ended up paying the company to come to work. You on the other hand still take money home.

We were all told that every group had to save a certain %. ACPA had to figure out where the % was to come from.

The percentages were all relevent to the amount of members in the union. (i.e Cupe has 8 times more the F/A's then Jazz so say that Jazz f/a's had to come up with 10% savings, Cupe had to come up with 80% savings)

I hope this makes you think a bit different.

We ALL took some huge cuts, jobs, money, you name it. Lets make the best of it and start working towards a healthy airline so we can get the things back we had to give up now.

Take care,

Peanuts

[gonzo]

CUPE had to come up with 80% savings??? Say what.