when will you learn?

[Guest Peanuts]

"I must be surviving law school somehow"???

You don't know this ?? Perhaps teachers have pity and let you attend for their amusement.

All my professors always let us know if we were passing or not.

Maybe you were trying to say, "I have been surviving law school somehow!"

Yet, when one mentions "law school" the induvidual doesn't usually get alot of sympathy

Take care and goodluck in school. Hope you find out soon if you are passing

Peanuts

[Guest mareli]

Actually, I've maintained a straight A average while working full time... so I'm pretty sure that I'm passing.

[Guest mareli]

Peanuts, Sustainable, and AME:

I mentioned what I was studying as we are taught to look at situations from as many sides as possible.

And yes, actually I am the child of two retired AC, a current AC employee, the spouse of an AC employee as well as a sibling of an AC employee. I wasn't trying to get into a legal debate or try and prove myself as a lawyer... because even though I'm studying law I have no intention of practicing, I just find it interesting and seem to do quite well at it.

IN MY OPINION, Keller's award is unfair. That being said, I realize that not everyone shares the same opinion likely because it benefits them greatly. I have always believed that in this merger a percentile is fair and Keller doesn't keep everyone in their same relative position as pre-merger. TO ME, that is unfair. I don't see why either group should gain or lose anything yet some people are greedy. All I would personally ask for is a similar position I had before the merge.

To answer another question, I think it's extremely difficult for an outsider to understand the ramifications of an award. Perhaps if Mr. Keller had seen a list constructed from the result of his award, he may have altered his decision.

As far as the personal attacks go, Sustainable, I think they're highly unnecessary and say a lot about your character. If you don't agree with me, fine, but insulting me and what I choose to study is unacceptable. I study because there is so much out there to learn and I love it... I'm thinking of an MBA next or even medicine, would they be more suitable to you?

[Guest Goggles]

"From your post I wil once again make an assumption,...you're in law school... given that, I would like to ask a question.... Do you believe, that anyone personaly involved in the seniority issue, is qualified, to determine what's fair and what isn't??? "

This reminds me of wartime, when both sides are convinced they're right and that god is on their side. Actually, it's called brainwashing and propaganda, and in some cases, manifest destiny.

Unfortunatly, AC itself is responsible for this attitude, since it long cultivated itself as an elitist organisation. Upon hiring, pilots especially were told by AC that: they're the chosen few, the elite, the major league players etc. So of course, their expectations are way out of proportion to what they're worth.

Many of AC's fundamental problems, including labour problems, eventually point straight back to bad management.

The ACPA legal team share this attitude (they're right and everybody else is wrong, because... isn't it obvious? OAC pilots are actually owed something because they're the greatest group of aviators that ever lived!)

The team actually includes pilots who are lawyers. So some of its lawyer-members are more likely to influence the tone of the legal challenges, whereas non pilot lawyers would probably advise the committee to be a bit more circumspect. They've been a bit brash I think, when they challenged the standing of CCRA WRT judges. They also challenged the CIRB's standing at the application in Federal court to stay the upcoming Keller award, and then challenged Keller himself when they walked out of his hearings. So they're not making many friends. Eventually, some of these parties are going to lose patience.

Goggles

[dragon]

Self esteem problems sustainable?

I will not debate too much with you cause I don’t see the point. However;

Re: Process. As for the Lordon part of this process, Lordon told Keller what to do and supplied Keller with a framework. For whatever reason , Lordon did not like what he saw. One may surmise that ACPA pilots were solely responsible for that, one may surmise a lot of things. If you have any doubt about that, even a dolt like you could do the 5 minutes of research and a half hour of reading to get some background information with which to post a reasonably intelligent response. [to use your prophetic statement]

A dick is born every day sustainable – Happy Birthday.

I hate to mention it cause I’m the worst speller in the world, but at the very least, run your material through a spell check, it will assist your credibility, … somewhat.

[Guest Goggles]

The press certainly saw it as a threat. The press also had trouble making the difference between the ACPA merger committee and ACPA at large. The president didn't make much effort making that difference either.

The press release makes the position very unclear. It's still posted on the ACPA web site:

"Air Canada's flight from bankruptcy may not get off the ground because of an unjust arbitration decision, says the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA)"

The passage was a veiled threat. Many persons saw it as one, including the press.

Goggles

[UpperDeck]

Imposter...You're not in law school.

[Guest mareli]

Goggles,

Well stated. Even though I don't agree with Mr. Keller's award, I can't say that I generally agree with the attitude ACPA and SOME of the AC pilots have. I can say the exact same thing about ex-CP as well.

You're exactly right when you say that managers have cultivated this attitude that starts from day 1 at the company. I, too, believe it dates back to early days.

How to change that attitude.......???? That's a whole new topic!

[Guest mareli]

[Guest Goggles]

"or the OCP pilots who actually get a pay RAISE when all is said and done"

You make it sound as if ACPA gave the OCP group the raise itself, and that the OCP group owes something to ACPA. I call that delusional. In fact, ACPA wanted BOTL for OCP, which would have resulted in pay reductions.

The pay raise happened before the merger not after the merger. Air Canada took over CAIL, not ACPA. So thanks for taking us on as an entity, Robert. (no thanks to ACPA)

[sustainable]

"For whatever reason , Lordon did not like what he saw."

Your opinion. Here's mine. Lordon sees and feels a lot of pressure from the OAC group to say "something" to pacify them so that they don't "reject the TA out of anger". Four days later, 87% ratification vote and the immediate danger is over. Everyone can take a deep breath and relax for a few months.

He said something... he said "limited review"

Fix me up a definition for that will ya!

ACPA (Merger) still has to demonstrate the harm. They can't.

Blow me.

[Guest Peanuts]

[ChicoChico]

In fact, ACPA wanted BOTL for OCP, which would have resulted in pay reductions

This statement is complete and utter BS and proves you have not a shred of credibility. Try to find it written down somewhere that ACPA sought BOTL. NEVER not from day one...we should have and maybe the saw-off would have been fair but we NEVER repeat NEVER suggested that BOTL was the answer.

[Guest Peanuts]

Yes, I do agree that even I would love to have my pre-merger position.

However, that is all history now and at times I do still get a bit choked about it but there isn't much we can do about it. I try to put myself in someone elses shoes and that one feels

not too great either.

You have the right idea though with putting your brain to use elsewhere. I am planning on doing the same starting September.

Good on you !

Peanuts

[cp fa]

"I mentioned what I was studying as we are taught to look at situations from as many sides as possible."

I'm not really sure how many sides it would be possible for you to view this particular issue, considering you and all of your immediate family are from Air Canada, and you have no relatives on the Canadian side (that you admit to), but just for the heck of it, what did you think of the Mitchnick award?

[Guest mareli]

Hi CP FA, I have no family on the former CP side but many family friends...

Being as objective as I can, I think Mitchnick was closer to fair than Keller. I personally didn't agree with the 340 fence and I believe that something closer to exact percentile would be more fair to both groups. In the F/A ruling there were to be no gains or losses +/- 2% of relative position. Some OAC pilots gained 5-7% and some OCP pilots lost about the same. I think that a new award should even that out and remove the 340 fence. This would cause most OAC to lose a little and most OCP to gain a little. I know there will still be some winners and losers in this scenario however, I don't think that there is a possible scenario that doesn't produce any gains or losses.

I realize that OCP brings more retirements to the company and OAC brings more WB airplanes but I think that keeping it simple and having a straight percentile merge would be fair.

[dragon]

Thanks for your opinion. As you know, ” You may read into that [your opinion] whatever you wish however without a direct line into Lordon's brain, your opinion is about as useful as the steaming pile of crud you posted. as you again, so eloquently stated.. Fix you up a definition? Immediate danger? Try and balance what you read in the Star with a little common sense.

However now, all that aside, excuse my ignorance but where exactly does it say anything about ACPA and the demonstration of harm? Even if they were required to, and they’re not, nor will I debate the virtue of that.. Unless you ARE Paul Lordon, the only thing that OAC and OCA have in common about now is that neither care what you think.

[Guest V1V2Vgo]

The Dragon breathes fire!

Yikes, quite a scorching blast from one who usually maintains a sense of normalcy around here. I don't know who you are, but you set the Near earth object straight in his whacko orbit more than once, so you are OK with me.

Just a question, if the Keller award forbid petitioning the CIRB, how come the emergency meeting of the CIRB, as demanded by ACPA?

[Guest jazzplayer]

Easy big fella, don't want to blow a gasket.

Scope concessions, give me a break, 3 wide bodies for every RJ: that makes economic sense! Thats like the bully kid at camp stealing all the chocolate bars, 3 for me 1 small one for you, etc. Do you not realize that a strong and competetive regional would have benefited the whole operation, yourself included.

As for Zip, yes enquiring minds would like to know. Not a single OAC guy at zip. Why? Lower wages and higher work load, pawn that off on the BLUE guys, kind of a band aid approach to a smouldering senority issue. You are calling this a productive initiative.

Really all of these initiatives and concessions would not exist if ACPA had stuck to the original merger policy of the predecesor union. But we won't go there because that IS the elephant standing in the room.

You say that I am &%$@! at ACPA. I am getting over it because, really, life is to short. You say you would like to see a resolution, well ALPA has tried in good faith many times, to resolve these issues and have been shot down. If the olive branch was ever extended they would come to the table to move forward because they can see the benefit of all the members of this industry saving it so perhaps the future might be good again for EVERYBODY.

Also, disregard the apparent sarcasm, I can't help it, sarcasm is my middle name.

[Guest neo]

Calling Dr. Morgentaler!

[dragon]

You were going on and on about ACPA, I simply disagreed to a certain extent. You wanted some examples. As I stated, there are many, I simply offered you ONE, along with the opportunity to educate all interested, me included. So, instead, you go on to yap about many things, many things except ZIP that is, and again with a good dose of the anti ACPA diss.

Again, I will not debate with you cause why? However, ZIP was Milton’s puppy, he wanted it, it diluted our standing contract. We just agreed to it – twice. Not a single OAC at ZIP? Once again, dead wrong. Our scope with Jazz? How about Jazz scope with T3? Please give me the Coles notes and then offer the data on economic sense if you will.

My own opinions with respect to a Jazz OAC merger are my own, I do not speak for ACPA. I believe it is unfortunate that our situation exists and I believe that anyone that still does not see that will very very soon.

Sarcasm disregarded, I have the same infliction. I gave you an example of ZIP, feel free to go back and answer that or if you like, I will gladly offer you a second example. My gaskets are ok, thanks for asking.

Cheers comrade

[Guest V1V2Vgo]

Classy reply, Dick.

[Guest jazzplayer]

So many issues so little time. I am now going to do something I should have done two hours ago: hit a bucket of balls:)

[dragon]

Excellent idea.

Next time you want to talk about ACPA, just let me know.

[Guest Touchdown]

Jazzplayer....

There are some OAC pilots at ZIP...NOT many but a few. I happen to know one personally. To be honest there are a number of OAC guys who got bumped off the ZIP list when the original merger occurred and they lost a whack of seniority numbers and therefore could no longer hold ZIP...again I know some personally. So as far as pawning it off to OCP.....NOT So....OCP just out bid us...

Mr.T