cp fa Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 The Keller award's not coming out this weekend after all. It's been delayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Where'd you hear that Jennifer, and any other info to pass along? And, moot?.. or just delayed? cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 ACPA email just arrived, update from the merger committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 ah yes, I see that now, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buck Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 ....so who in their right mind would vote for any TA, until this seniority issue is resolved now? Some individuals under any semblance of doh would be getting pay cuts in excess of 65%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goldendog Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 That email didn't come to all ACPA pilots, and I'm sure you can guess whow didn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sustainable Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Well under the current scheme, which by the way, is Mort, I was looking at the 65% pay cut, if not out the door with 15 years. At least I got prepared and gave myself options. I suggest others do likewise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Welcome to the club. Funny how it is O/K for the Canadi>n guys to get stuffed into Zip. Or, go from right seat 767 in YVR, flying a block 12 days a month on overseas prior to the merger, to R/P 767. With all the associated pay cuts. All under Mitchnick!! The Canadi>n pilots have been in a 'tail spin' since the merger. With every EAB a Canadia>n pilot got replaced, on any given piece of equipment, by an AC Pilot. The 340 F/O's, prior to the merger, are now 767 Captains. The 5 year wonder 767 F/O's, that flew -200's on domestic, on reserve, are now 340 F/O's. THANKS TO THE MERGER! Now there could be some sanity and you guys are crying about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jazzplayer Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Buck, You guys just don't get it. The clock is ticking to the tune of 5 million a day. Time is a luxury you don't have to try and resolve issues in Canadian aviation that have been broiling for decades. Normal negots are not on this card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goldberg Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 ......you guys kill me..........look at your list before the 'takeover' and immediately after..... same equipment or better, AND a big pay raise......... the only difference now is that you may have to actually go to work for that pay check.......WOW..... what a concept........ i dare you to show me one CDN guy that took a paycut...... cuz it didn't happen......... just another urban legend from the CDN spin doctors......... next time, just the facts......... xoxo Goldberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 100 Above Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Johnny, Johnny, Johnny, What are you smokin' boy. Prior to Mitchnik I was in the top 10 % on the A340 as an F/O and on the subsequent bid I was awarded the left seat on the A320 in the high 90 percentile. I don't know one A340 F/O that went to the left seat of the B767. Please enlighten me/us with factual names or numbers.. Please !! Don't go spreading sh*t to make your cries of injustice more dramatic !!! 100 Above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 100 Above Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Finally, someone who calls a spade a spade !! Well said Goldberg !!! The truth does hurt !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 We must be on different bases. In YVR we are getting 340 F/O's in the left seat of the 767 on a daily basis. If I'm not mistaken they are roughly 78 and 79 DOH. As much as I would love to use names, I will resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Spin? Your the one with you facts wrong. I don't believe we should throw wages and working conditions around public forums, however, lets start with a Canadi>n 737 Captain. He HAD!!!! to go to 'Zip' to maintain status. He has gone from 12 days, of very effecient flying, to 20 days of extremely inefficient flying. Plus, 4 days of Simulator per year and 1 day of ART. ON HIS DAYS OFF. 8 more working days/month plus training. You crunch the salary numbers and show me the pay raise. The exact same senario exists for the DC10 F/O, turned 767 F/O. There are lots of these in YVR. He is at least working an extra month per year than he was at Canadi>n. The difference between me and you is that I have worked for both Airlines, you have not. The myth that Air Canada is efficient, is a joke. 767 Check Pilot displaces 767 Captain, who stays home on full pay. To do a 'Line Check' on a R/P. Six day pairing, YVR - HNL - SYD - HNL - YVR. I could go on and on..... As for the 'Same equipment or better' line. We are losing guys off the 767 F/O (YVR) list every bid. These guys were flying this equipment prior to the merger and are getting bumped off on each and every bid. JUST THE FACTS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest windi Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Johnny, A couple of points. 1. Those YVR A340 F/O's that seem to get your goat so much. Go back to the 1999 and 2000 bids and see what they could hold prior to the Mitchnick list. Not just in YVR, but system wide. Take a look at what a 78' or 79' DOH bought you at AC and CAIL as well. 2. CAIL harm? How about you try this one on for size. The pay uplift of the original AC pilot group from Jan 4, 2000 up to and including the pay uplift that we were supposed to get in April of this year (but didn't) was approximately 15%. On the CAIL side that figure is approximately 55% for the same time period. Now factor in the fact that both camps are going to get about a 16% cut from those values and what do you get? Harm? Please! Additionally, go and look closely at who on the CAIL side has gone to what positions since Jan 4, 2000 and do the same for the original AC group. Many on your Blue team have increasd their position (with the additional pay increase), many have stayed the same (a pre-merger pay increase) and many have bid down by CHOICE (still maintaining a pre-merger pay increase). Those are the facts. There is hardly going to be one single CAIL pilot who is going to be making less money with the TA pay cut and pending reductions as compared to pre-merger even if the Mitchnick list were to be used moving forward let alone what Keller has up his sleeve. On the AC side, we are going back to pre-merger with the pay cut, further back with the reductions, and then possibly even further back with the new Keller list. And you wonder why we're &%$@!. Let's face it Johnny, this seniority issue has been all about money from the get go. The difference between the original AC and Blue team is that we admit it, and you guys never have, and for obvious reasons. The possibility that the Keller list would provide the ex-CAIL pilot group with anything more than that which they have already materially gained , at the direct expense of the original AC pilot group, and given what we are facing as a restructured carrier, is way more than many original AC types can handle. If you want to look it in the eye, the truth hurts sometimes. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I continue to have difficulty with your groups version of a pay raise. If my son is working at Mcdondalds for $6/hr. One week he puts in 10 hours and the next 15 hours. Do I explain to him that in week two he got a pay raise? Yes son that is what we call "Air Canada Math." My point being that the Air Canada contract was hardly a pay raise for the majority. As for your point with reference to when these 767 captains were awarded the equipment. Could they have been awarded a bid, pre-merger, and just be getting trained? I somewhat doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter North Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Johnny Boy,scuse me while I weigh in here with my length.You my boy have a job.Your pay raise came directly from not facing the UI lineup.Back on Dec21/99 at 14:30 hrs,30 million went into cails bank acct.That was for the slots into NRT and also bridge financing so that you could make payroll that week.Guess what...your payroll was due out at 18:30hrs that same night.I personally know the finance person who made the money transfer.That johnny boy you can take to the bank.Cail also had lease payment due out the next am.Failing all this of course,Cail would have ceased operations by 12:00hrs the next day.Count your lucky stars Johnny.All the gains you have made have personally come from the original pilots at AC.You might say you were uh...........DOA when ac aquired the empty corpse of Cail.Take care johnny and qiut spreading bad jokes. Peter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "All the gains you have made have personally come from the original pilots at AC." I'm not sure where you fit on the list however, if you're one of the 243 or lower your line above can be applied to your situation as per the Jazz pilots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest windi Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Johnny, The pay raise. Go look at the CA's of both carriers that were in efect in Jan of 2000. Look at the pay rates for equivalent positions. Look at what DMM was for both carriers. Please! The Blue side will never acknowledge the huge pay uplift that they have received because it exposes the truth of what a windfall gain really is. The B767 pilots. Go look at Bids 99-02 and 00-02 and see what the AC pilots in question could hold. You don't want to for good reason. The simple fact was that DOH's on both lists bought vastly different things as did any equal realtive seniority percentage. Those are the facts. By trying to argue otherwise is to condone dipping into the bank accounts of the AC pilot group and tarnsferring the equity of our seniority list into your own. In our minds we view that as theft and that's why we will never ever see eye to eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter North Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Nope..just a business guy who has financial ties to ac.But I will say this you regional guys and mainline have to get together..and soon cause without ac there is no jazz,and me tinks thatwithout jazz there is no ac.You people must swallow some of your ego and get common ground or there will be no airplanes left to fly.As far as for the jet issue..why don't you just split hairs,1 to jazz...! to ac,until you guys can stop your feuding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Peter I would think that because you're not in the "box" you are able to think "outside the box". It's too bad others here can't do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HPT-TOUR Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Not true, if AC tankers Jazz can still survive, the bankruptcy`s were filed seperatley for Jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter North Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 No but seriously,why don't you guys just divy up the jets that are supposed to be coming ,come up with a flat rate for flying them,as to not undercut each other.Fair?Then sit down and come up with some sort of agrrement for bidding on other equipment?As for surviving I think that BOTH jazz nad ac need the pax feed> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goldberg Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 little johnny........ you sound like this old cranky, bed-wetter i flew with last year........ after all his whining about how A.C. has ruined his life.......he now has to work between 15-20 days a month.......compared to the 3-4 days as a dc-10 reserve f/o ........ after 3 days of flying and crying, i pulled out the CDN paytables and guess what?...........the poor fellow only doubled his salary from his days at CAIL........ now SHUT UP about how good it was when you were a baby......... some guys just like to complain buddy, but you are turning it into an olympic sport..........i don't think too many of the other 35000 employees will feel sorry for you.......... btw....... i am sorry your mommy didn't love you...... xoxo Goldberg........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfhunter Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Sometimes…………….. I ……………………..find……it………………………………….hard……………to………………….follow…………………………………..your…….train…………………………………………………………of……………………………………….thought………………………………with…….all……..of………………………………………………………………….the……………….dots. If…………it ………..were…………………..not…….for……………………………………my…………………fine…………………..grasp…….of………sarcasm…………….I………might……………………………………………… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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