Kip Powick Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 In the NacCan Raises Rates part of the article we see that once again the WJ spokesperson takes another shot at AC....sorta reminds me of the CP/AC duel.....ah the good old days Some 115 of Air Canada's mechanics in Calgary will be laid off and most of the remaining 235 here will be forced to take their holidays over the summer as the big carrier struggles to slash costs amid a deepening financial crunch. And to make matters worse not just for Air Canada but all airlines, Nav Canada announced a proposal to hike fees it charges carriers by 6.9%. As of June 1, 115 Air Canada technicians based here will be handed their pink slips and, as part of a deal with its union, the carrier has asked the majority of the remaining workers to take paid vacation time during summer when the airline will be grounding aircraft to slash costs, said a company spokeswoman. "This is due to the economic conditions worldwide which have led to a significant decrease in work requirements for both Air Canada and third-party customers," Angela Mah said of the unit which not only maintains the carrier's aircraft but others on a contract basis. And in another bit of bad news, Nav Canada, a not-for-profit corporation that operates the country's air navigation system, said dwindling air travel and a looming deficit has forced it to hike its fees. Industry officials greeted the news with exasperation yesterday, having expected the fee hike but reiterating that carriers can least afford to shoulder higher costs at a time of waning air travel. "The industry has no capacity to take on more costs -- none. So this will be a blow," said Warren Everson, spokesman for the Air Transport Association of Canada. WestJet spokeswoman Siobhan Vinish said it looks as if the Calgary-based discount airline's future passengers will be helping to pay for Air Canada's bad debts. Insolvent Air Canada, now in bankruptcy protection from its creditors, has had difficulty paying its bills to Nav Canada. "Anytime you have an increase in costs it does impact demand but as to how much of an impact it will be -- we just don't know at this point," said Vinish. Nav Canada said the proposed increase amounts to 65 cents more per one-way ticket for a flight from Toronto to Ottawa, although the amounts charged would vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 So what's bad about laying it out on the line and telling it like it is........Nav Canada has to re-coup costs.......a DIRECT result of failure of AC to pay its bills! Air Canada cannot walk away from this mess they have created with their well known business practices without being embarassed and continue to be embarassed......in the public's eye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 20, 2003 Author Share Posted May 20, 2003 Wowee...little defensive about the WJ spokesperson's comments, aren't you?? Did you read the start of the article about all those employees loosing their job?? Sorry I forgot, you seem to only write rants that are anti AC,and defend WJ....all to extremes...your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I guess compassion just isn't in your vocabulary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JakeYYZ Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 Is this the same “Kip” who claims a flat 10% wage reduction for the admin clerk and the Pilot is a fair proposition? What..no compassion for the 35k clerk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted May 20, 2003 Share Posted May 20, 2003 What nobody ever mentions is the fact that Nav Cananda has REDUCED rates big time since taking over from the government in 1996. Every few years rates decreased, so the airlines were paying less and less for the same service. Then AC decided not to pay the bills at all, (44 MIL) and now everyone in the industry feels Nav Canada is screwing the airlines. Stop blaming others for this mess!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted May 20, 2003 Author Share Posted May 20, 2003 Fester...If your last comment is directed at me.....please don't shoot the messenger Jake...yes...and you will see that the pilots will cough it up first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Hey Clyde, we've been through this before but you don't seem to be getting it. There likely wouldn't be any bad debts except for Westjet's existence. AC didn't create this mess - it's due to the destabilizing effect of the discounters.You want to find the reason why AC can't pay the bills? Look at Westjet's business plan for a start: hire a bunch of stars-in-their-eyes kids and pay them a marginal wage with the promise of profit sharing. And I'm not talking about pilots here. I've asked this question of several of the Westjet cheerleaders here and never yet found anyone to answer: how much do the CSRs get paid? What about the FAs How about the subcontracted baggage handler? Don't boo hoo to me about how much you'll be paying NavCan. Those chickens coming home to roost have Westjet written all over them. seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Let's leave WJ alone, good sources say the water is coming to a boil. 40% of their wages was profit sharing. The last couple of quarters were lean and the bottom end aren't impressed the millionare 'Rangers'. Their sun will be setting sooner than later. (place a snickering Beddoe here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Regardless of the bickering,AC WJ, there will be about 135 AME's in YYC out of work, a whole lot more in YUL YVR, but yet other unions are doing whatever possible to keep a stanglehold on their no layoff clauses, in the mean time the ship keeps sinking. I have always advocated staff reductions before wage reduction, we in maintenance have lost close to 1500 people from lay offs and retirements, it is time for the rest of the unions to pony up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Well then, what exactly do those.....uhum......"experienced" CSR's and FA's (no time dating infered....maybe) and those, as your own a few posts down implicated for "unskilled" baggage handlers make. Apparantly, even your own kind feel that your baggage handlers are overpaid. And by the way......ya......your company....that sorry excuse for an airline IS responsible for increased costs in this business. It's simple.........when someone doesn't pay their bills and continues to receive services....others have to pay in the end.....a prime example is insurance...we all pay for a few bad apples.....and we know who the bad apple is in this day and age....yes it's...........take a wild A _ _ guess chump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B75/76 Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 You can't honestly believe that AC's current state of affairs is due to WJ? WJ has done very well, but to suggest that in their short existence they have brought AC to its knees is ludicrous. I will grant you that WJ has made life more difficult for AC, but they were well done this ruinous road already. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-HANDLE Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Your sources can't be that good. I have never recieved 40% of my wage in profit sharing. You might want to take anything else your "good sources" have to say with a very large grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Not at all a surprising response - I expected no less from you. Don't know why I bother actually. I have made no posts about ACs baggage handlers being overpaid, quite the contrary. I have made several posts about what the future holds for all those discount airline employees just getting by on their salary and praying for a profit-sharing cheque to pay off the Visa. Would you like to comment on that? Westjet has used every angle they could to get up on AC: they whine to the competition bureau, drop any city that doesn't "support" them, they've exploited the difference between their wage costs and AC's and exploited the cost difference between their environment and AC's and that's just fine. Fine because it's business. But you know what? Using CCAA to cut costs and renegotiate debt is business too. And so is finding a new partner with deep pockets to bankroll the new company. Westjet has a whole different future ahead of it now. seeker P.S. keyboards are real cheap at Future Shop, you may want to replace your's as it seems to have a few sticky keys ( I don't want to know why ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 What is your job, and what percentage is your profit sharing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Just getting by on my salary? Oh.......just a second.......Maid......get me a beer.......thank-you! Now......for your next stupid comment.......Visa platinum with no limit you say? Mortagage free with recreation properties.....Dropping every city that doesn't support them.....sounds like a solid plan to me...........CCAA to cut costs......you otta be ashamed of yourself.....do you realize how many others you yourself have placed in jeopardy by simply working at AC? And finally, good luck finding someone with deep pockets to bankroll you.......If you do..introduce me........I'd like to take some of the stooges money as well. I can't believe you actually think that way..CCAA to cut costs.........once again......you otta be ashamed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Nice. How about those salaries for the CSRs, baggage handlers and FAs? I'm still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Like I said........Good luck overseas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Let me think........nope! It will only embarass your membership as they contemplate further pay cuts to place you at the rock bottom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Oh you don't have to worry about that, Westjet will always be the bottom as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-HANDLE Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 My job is pilot, and my profit sharing has been about 20% of base pay, like all WJ employees. What's your story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JW Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 >>So what's bad about laying it out on the line and telling it like it is<< ...with massive spin! The notion is basically correct though. The fact is that AC has had to suffer the gradual or sudden demise of a number of airlines in the past, too. As I've posted before, the pressure is put upon the entire industry. The framework in Canada has been never allowed to reach any kind of balance for any period of time before the Government tips the scales once again. In personal interest, and I feel in fairness, too, that the time is not now for the Government to back off entirely. The situation at AC is very directly tied to Government meddling and fiddling. If they really wanted to do something of import, then disbanding the ACPPA would be a major step in leveling the playing field, imo. There's nothing new in the situation with WJ, or the current airlines of industry worldwide that haven't been faced before. They are newer entrants into the marketplace and just haven't had to weather the condition to this point, is all. ...but only imo! JW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Seeker, 3rd year CSA salary including all benefits: $ 47,760.00. As far as discounters being responsible for ACs' current woes is nonsense. If you look around the world all of the full service airlines are in the same boat. There are a few such as Quatas and BA who are weathering the storm better. Why? Proactive management. When they saw trouble on the horizon they acted swiftly thus avoiding many of the pitfalls AC is dealing with. Discount airlines are here to stay. Terrorism is here to stay, Mideast instability is here to stay, as is West Nile and probably SARS. Knowing that, you have to act accordingly if you want to survive. If your AC could have acted sooner perhaps it wouldn't be where it is now. P.S. Take it a little easier b52er, it's getting a little thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Virtual Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Are you an earlier entrant into WestJet or have you been hired recently? Just wondering if those hired later made/make out 'as well' as those that came in on the 'ground floor'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chiselcharter Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 add salt too water it boils quicker...my percentage may not be gospel, but your company is about to grow up. I notice you didn't comment on that. I didn't see Milton's name in Canada's top 100 compensated CEO's. Clive is making a fortune on the backs of his employees. The earnings between top and bottom will have to be addressed, you know it and so does everyone else. I can wait for the water to boil, there are other uses for salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-HANDLE Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Your percentage wasn't even close. How accurate is the rest of your assessment? Your POV is very typical. If someone is successful, there must be something wrong. Clive gets paid for producing results. His base pay was considerably less than one third that of Robert Milton's, the rest is earned through the performance of the company. For several years he recieved no base pay at all. Frankly, IMO, the obsenity is a CEO who can lose billions, and still collect a million dollar plus base pay. The founders of WJ put their own money into starting it. They took the risk, and they were rewarded. That's how it works. If you mades a big profit on a stock, any stock, would you feel guilty, or would you say "I risked my money, I deserve this"? The employees have a chance to share in the success of the company, and I believe that it will continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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