Guest b52er Posted April 17, 2003 Share Posted April 17, 2003 That's the whole point. A "Flag Carrier" is owned, operated, controlled, by the "state". Air Canada meets none of those requirements, albeit, our Feds attempt to control at times, however, unless the carrier is financially responsible and fiscally managed by the "state", sorry, no flag status boys. WestJet is a Canadian carrier, no claims for provincial status or otherwise as we are not owned or controlled by the province. Besides, as a Canadian, I ensure that when travelling abroad, if ever asked, the unfortunate state of AC is always described to others as a carrier that is NOT our flag, only a fledging embarassment carrying the proud Maple Leaf by default. I suppose in a free democratic state, you are entitled to view things as you please, so carry on with your misconsceptions. Just please when representing Canada, get your facts straights when discussing our industry with others. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tri-spool Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I've said it before and I'll say it again... Liquidation No, but re-regulation of Canada's airline industry...much more likely! For all the failings of DC, he is a big nationalist a heart! Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Financial Guy Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Agreed. There is a very, very strong possibility that AC will emerge from CCAA as a much leaner, meaner airline. If so, the new AC will be an airline with established networks, i.e. Aeroplan, a solid infrastructure, and a great deal of employees that will want to see the company succeed, modern fleet, trained AME’s, etc. Within a short time frame of AC emerging from CCAA, WJ will have to reevaluate it’s expansion plans because AC will be a closer match from a price standpoint to WJ, and customers will begin to feel more secure putting on an old shoe, rather that becoming a free-spirited traveler. At that point, WJ’s compensation structure begins the process of weakening, unions start to bang on the door, drivers want to jump ship, etc. If this is even remotely true, then WJ’s value diminishes considerably – not to mention the future value currently exhibited in their stock value. We will see a mild silencing of those, including Clive, that think WJ is the only airline in the country that anyone should think about. Maybe AC will liquidate. But if they don’t, who would bet on the future value of WJ’s stock, except for those with blinders on and very little technical investment knowledge? A little pro-AC? Yes, but let’s see what happens. I’m sure a few will disagree with the above, but a great deal more will agree – including heavy weight companies like GE for starters. As Kip says “Flak jacket on” (or words to that effect). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I sure hope you don't work for an airline because you are a true embarassment. And if you do why don't you just be happy and enjoy your job and curtail the mudslinging. All it does is tarnish your image. So you think AC is not a flag carrier so you think its an embarassment. I don't think AC is an embarassment. I think yours and my votes cancel out. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Your thinking looks sound to me, F/G. Obviously no one can predict the future, but if the elements of your scenario fall into place, your assumptions seem rational. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I must have warned my colleagues a hundred times before we went into CCAA, "don't engage in wishful thinking." I was trying to alert them to a pending reality, and I wouldn't claim much success. As far as AC liquidating is concerned, no one can predict with certainty. But I'd have to put your belief in the "wishful thinking" category as well. AC could liquidate, it's true. But there are a lot of good reasons why it might not. And if it doesn't, WestJet will have a fight on its hands. neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M. McRae Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Even in YLW, AC is recognized as Canada's Flag Carrier. http://www.kelownabc.com/Transportation/Air/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mars Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 NAVCAN CCAA? Most, if not all, operational employees wouldn't shed a tear. Why? It is just a 'holding company' legislated to provide an essential public service. NAVCAN folding would mean the top Execs and managers would be gone, but the operation would have to continue. Do you think there are qualified controllers ,FSS and technicians just sitting around waiting for a job opening? However, the sad truth if Air Canada were to liquidate (I fervently hope for all involved it does not) is the fees to other customers will just be pro-rated to cover the short fall. Fair? Maybe not, but the cold hard reality of funding the ANS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 There is no wishing going on. It's the same way I told you before Christmass that AC had big cash-flow problems. I'm just stating the facts as I see them. If you think for one minute that there is cohessive opinon between stakeholders I suggest you wait and see at the Apr. 22 court hearings. I think you might be surprized how many of the creditors and unions are going to have a scrap over who gets what and how. Any one of them can put the whole thing in the tank. If you think that's heartless of me to say try dealing with a spurned creditor, you'll see heartless (Apr.22). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 First off, a flag carrier does not have to be government owned. American and United are just two examples of Flag carriers in the US. It's where you go, not who owns you. As for WestJet's claims for status, you better look back on how that airline got started. It kicked and screamed loudly as Transport tried to bring it into the same regulatory region as Air Canada, resisting giving up its local regulatory status at every turn. To this day WestJet does not face anywhere near the level of federal interference Air Canada does. I also suggest you read the Air Canada Public Participation Act - It's not by default, it's the law. You said it best, now live by it. "I suppose in a free democratic state, you are entitled to view things as you please, so carry on with your misconsceptions. Just please when representing Canada, get your facts straights when discussing our industry with others. " If you really do speak as you do when travelling, your actions there and here are libelous and slanderous. You may find the urge to take an ill-researched cheap shot irresistable, but you embarass yourself each and every time you do. Just my opinion. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest acfaywg Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 When we emerge I sure hope we can give WJ a run for there money!! Aragant is what we are claimed to be, yet you look at Robert and Clive and I have to say Clive is one sad story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 >That's the whole point. A "Flag Carrier" is owned, operated, controlled, by the "state".< Ok, just let me understand this. Under the criteria above, the U.S. would have no 'Flag Carrier' nor would Australia or Britain to name a couple of others. U.S. definition - "U.S.-flag air carrier" means an air carrier holding a certificate under section 401 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. 1371)." http://www.arnet.gov/far/current/html/Subpart_47_4.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neo Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 My apologies, F40. It's no secret that WestJet employees would benefit mightily if AC folded... share prices and all that. I thought perhaps that might have influenced your comments about liquidation. You were right about the fact that AC had big cash flow problems; otherwise, we wouldn't be in CCAA. But now that we are, conjecture about liquidation isn't "facts", is it? It's either speculation, in the case of a neutral commentor like yourself, or wishful thinking, in the case of someone with more to gain. I'd say there's little cohesion at all between most of the stakeholders, except that provided by fear of poverty. And that makes for a remarkable glue! neo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 I don't think the sudden demise of AC is good for WJ or anybody for that matter. I'm just saying that I have been through the process in a small way myself in a previous life and it isn't pretty. Creditors are generally heartless when it come to their money even if you are trying to find ways to pay it back. Opinons are born from facts as you and I see them. The fact is that very few companies can emerge from the process and there are many ways to tip the apple cart. The AC unions may the ones, the bond holders, a bank, who knows. Even if the judge rips up the collective agreements it can be overturned by another judge as it has been before. What the unions are doing should send a clear signal to all that even if AC gets what it wants it won't capture the hearts and minds of the employees and without their support it it's not likely to work anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigbigbus Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 you're so right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 What everyone is forgetting is that AC has constantly said the reason for the CCAA is not a cash crunch .....but rather the money that they have to pay into the pansion funds DUE .....to a lack of planning. AC will survive this CIBC just signed for 350,000,000 Look for Lufthansa and the German banks to put a stake into AC Ground Don't count Gerry and the boys out yet AC will survive , its just that we ...the employees are going to take the big hurt so that the American style of management can get more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Frosty P.S. Flame away it's ok cause I've had way too much COFFEE !!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 YEAH but that doesn't make good press!!!!!!! Frosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Toron1 Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 "you go girl" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leftbase Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 Who is this "everyone" you speak of? Please don't include me in it...as far as your "WestJet in Heathrow" line - I bet any Canadian there that day would recognize it, Albertan or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest leftbase Posted April 18, 2003 Share Posted April 18, 2003 This whole thread is an embarassment (albeit amusing, ina a petty way), both to those trying to say AC isn't a flag carrier, and those earnestly pleading that in fact "It is Too!!"... Flag carrier or no - one airline is fighting for it's financial survival, one is not. Frankly, it's embarassing to have as our "National Airline", our proud "Flag Carrier", our "National Heritage Treasure", etc ad nauseam, under bankruptcy protection. Now THAT'S something to be proud of and trumpet to the world. Good grief. Keep the fiddle tuned up, Rome's still burning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.