dagger Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/030329/airlines_labor_1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lupin Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 OUCH!!!! Funny how things change... United will go from being the airline close to liquidating to the airline that will set the standard for the other ailines!(salary and work condition wise) With United getting its huge wage cuts...you can be pretty shure American will be following close behind them and like a large domino set....the whole industry in north america.We will be going back 10-15 years in wages and work conditions!! Interesting how the airline that should have gone under,will be the one that destroys the pay structure for everyone in the airline industry. Now as a question to all.... Would it have been better if United had shut down?? Lupin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 6to8mos Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Start by putting an end to tax payer subsidized community college programs that dump pilots on market year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 If you read the fine print in the UAL pilots contract they didn't really take a 30% pay cut. They had a pending 29% raise over the course of their recently negotiated contract plus some other goodies that they elected to forgo. Their compensation package is still relatively intact. The american pilots will never do what WJ and Jetsgo have done to the Canadian aviation industry. The discounters in the U.S. make what Air Canada pilots earn. Our discount pilots earn what the tier 3 earns in the U.S.. Hell, the pilots at TACA living in San Jose earn more than a WJ or Jetsgo pilot and that's a third world country! We are so stupid as a collectivity we haven't even a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Yes, but the work rules are about to change dramatically. A lot more stick time, it would seem. The idea being do a lot more with fewer people. Exactly what I was advocating here for months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 You're not the only one advocating more stick time on average. We can do a lot more with the people we have if we make a few pro-active changes to displacement rules, reserve coverage etc. And I, for one, would gladly work for United Pay rates AFTER the pay cut. But if I read one more article in which a two bit reporter claims that pilots only work 9 days per month, I'm going to lose it! Pilots don't work a set number of calendar days. We work a set number of block hours. And those block hours are basically the same whether you fly 8 legs per day on an RJ, or one 14 hour sector on an A-340 or a 747. The only pilots who ever work a 9 day block are those flying ultra long haul ( ie. YYZ - NRT or YVR - HKG ) and even then, it's only in a month without SIM or Annual Recurrent Training. And if you are one of the few with a block like that, you get to sleep once in a bed during those 3 day pairings! When you return to base, you spend the next 24 hours either unconscious or catatonic. It isn't like working 9 days at a reporter's cubicle writing ill-informed opinions based on amateur research. The next time a reporter makes that claim, I think I'll call him at home when I get to work, and then again after the park brake is set at the destination... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I don't think you'll find to many pilots saying they wouldn't like to fly more. ACPA is contractually limited to about 90 hours per month during periods of growth flex (The CARS limit is 100 hours) under LOU52 we are utilizing a process known as shrink flex. This has some pilots (depending upon equipment type) flying 70 hours per month. This offers tremendous flexibility to the company. The nature of the business is cyclical and training costs are massive. I said a few days ago the average AC new hire has a university degree and at least 4 type ratings that's worth about $106000. Then Air Canada hires them and types them again to the tune of 35K. Why would any company spend this kind of money on a employee and then lay them off? F/A's, Rampies, and sales agents cost nothing by comparison. When I was hired on due to some unique circumstances the company spent about 60K U.S. on me and my sim partner simply for our simulator training! When you put things in that sort of context laying off people you have invested that kind of money in isn't all that attractive. I have maintained that AC pilot wages by Canadian standards are becoming average (Toronto city cops now make 85K plus overtime) but if you broaden your horizons and look beyond our borders there isn't a crew doing a pacific or atlantic crossing making less. Just about 18months ago Milton was in New York bragging about how he had the lowest priced 747 captains in the Star alliance! Now he says we are paid to much. Which is it? The company always brushes us off when we draw these comparisons to airlines outside Canada during contract negotiations but they are currently using what is going on in the U.S. to attempt to justify wage cuts for Pilots at AC. It makes no sense, unless those making those claims are mis-representing the facts. I asked an old guy if he has ever seen it this bad before he said yes. The panicky masses just have to relax we will come out of this and the McDonalds wages at WJ, Canjet and Jetgo do not necessarily have to be the end result unless we choose that as our solution. This notion that everybody wants lo-cost, coach class seating with 29 inch seat pitch just isn't the case. The people I have talked to will fly CANJET et al on short flights where lousy service and cramped seating are tolerable but a 6 hour transcon or a 16 hour pacific crossing are quite another story. Give the Canadian public what they want: cramped seating and lousy service on short haul a'la Canjet, and WJ and provide a higher end service on those long sectors. (Bigger seats, better meals, better frequency). Labtec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labtec Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I don't think you'll find to many pilots saying they wouldn't like to fly more. ACPA is contractually limited to about 90 hours per month during periods of growth flex (The CARS limit is 100 hours) under LOU52 we are utilizing a process known as shrink flex. This has some pilots (depending upon equipment type) flying 70 hours per month. This offers tremendous flexibility to the company. The nature of the business is cyclical and training costs are massive. I said a few days ago the average AC new hire has a university degree and at least 4 type ratings that's worth about $106000. Then Air Canada hires them and types them again to the tune of 35K. Why would any company spend this kind of money on a employee and then lay them off? F/A's, Rampies, and sales agents cost nothing by comparison. When I was hired on due to some unique circumstances the company spent about 60K U.S. on me and my sim partner simply for our simulator training! When you put things in that sort of context laying off people you have invested that kind of money in isn't all that attractive. I have maintained that AC pilot wages by Canadian standards are becoming average (Toronto city cops now make 85K plus overtime) but if you broaden your horizons and look beyond our borders there isn't a crew doing a pacific or atlantic crossing making less. Just about 18months ago Milton was in New York bragging about how he had the lowest priced 747 captains in the Star alliance! Now he says we are paid to much. Which is it? The company always brushes us off when we draw these comparisons to airlines outside Canada during contract negotiations but they are currently using what is going on in the U.S. to attempt to justify wage cuts for Pilots at AC. It makes no sense, unless those making those claims are mis-representing the facts. I asked an old guy if he has ever seen it this bad before he said yes. The panicky masses just have to relax we will come out of this and the McDonalds wages at WJ, Canjet and Jetgo do not necessarily have to be the end result unless we choose that as our solution. This notion that everybody wants lo-cost, coach class seating with 29 inch seat pitch just isn't the case. The people I have talked to will fly CANJET et al on short flights where lousy service and cramped seating are tolerable but a 6 hour transcon or a 16 hour pacific crossing are quite another story. Give the Canadian public what they want: cramped seating and lousy service on short haul a'la Canjet, and WJ and provide a higher end service on those long sectors. (Bigger seats, better meals, better frequency). LABTEC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Yeah, all you crusty old critters ever do is sit back in your sheepskins and count the dollars while the airplane flies herself allthewaytoneverland, and your 9 days are done in 3 and even then you're out on the golf course or at a hotel with some luscious blonde cookie chuckers for half of them 3, and for that you get about 18 zillion bucks a year... We know... You cain't fool us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest George Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Milton was in New York bragging about how he had the lowest priced 747 captains in the Star alliance! Now he says we are paid to much. Which is it? Well, he never said that AC 747 skippers were overpaid. Its the major domestic competitor that he is comparing our domestic pilots with. The distinction has always been clear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest V1 Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 THanks Starman, I tried to compose a post about the 9 day thing to but I could remain composed...and it was just all garbled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GDR Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Darn it all Mitch. You must have someone on the inside to get that kinda information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Yeah you've been advocating it here for months, but you've got absolutely nothing to lose... Except to decrease some financial gain. Where's the value you add? Nothing. Not one single iota of product or improvement to a product or service do you contribute, yet you and all the other share holders that lay claim to that third leg of the stool have the nerve to scream and holler when things are tough and tell us we've gotta put out more.....? I'm tempted to hold up three fingers and ask you to read between the lines, but I don't want to be nasty with you. How 'bout you? what are you putting out? Dagger, I've grown to like you for some reason, but for the life of me (maybe it's the rum?), I can't figure why it is that your gig earns you money off of our backs? What is your contribution? and why do I get the feeling this is one of those posts I should delete? Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Mitch, Dagger does not work for Air Canada but yet he seems to think he knows all the aspects of the company, he seems to think he knows more of what goes on in maintenance than you and I do,what a crock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starman Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Well that's the other problem, Mitch... Any Luscious Blonde Biscuit Shooters on the ultra long haul flights will be on reserve... ...and they'll only have eyes for the Cruise Relief Pilot. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 Wrong, wrong and wrong, Larry, Moe and Curly I'm not even a shareholders and haven't been for some time, but I'd rather see AC saved than liquidated. I'd like to think that I can understand human nature and can read a balance sheet and understand the relationship between revenues and expenses and that if you are spending more than you take in, you will FAIL! Bankrupt, KAPUT. No rocket science. So you can either figure out how to cut your costs, or raise your revenues. Well, even looking beyond the short term challenges of war and SARS, there is the little matter about airlines which can underprice Air Canada on any route they choose because they have much cheaper costs. No rocket science understanding that either. Some of you are proud of the (incorrect) claim that if you all worked for nothing, Air Canada wouldn't be profitable. Actually, Air Canada would make a nice profit if you worked for nothing, even with war and SARS. But I digress. Nobody is expecting you to work even one week for free. However, it is also true that even if Air Canada were debt free - paying no interest whatsoever - it would still be losing money with war and SARS and possibly the Westjet growth phenomenon. Air Canada's interest payments last year were only equal to about 40 percent of the airline's total loss. So those of you who point to the debt, or Milton's salary, or the number of vice-presidents are all just ignoring the macro challenge which is to align Air Canada's expenses with a reduced revenue raising capability which is being systematically degraded by low-cost competition. The world has changed. You don't seem to believe that you have to change. I do know that even excluding staff allocated to Aeroplan or third party maintenance, Air Canada has about twice as many employees per aircraft as Westjet. It also has more employees per aircraft than any major US carrier. In some cases, that's because archaic work rules institutionalize labor featherbedding. Again, that's not rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 I sure do hope that you are in management at AC because it just makes it easier for us scum at Low Cost Carriers. We keep growing and you keep shrinking, we make money and you lose money, we hire people and you lay off people. And after all that hits you right between the eyes you still can't see it, you still don't get it, do you. You even say it in your post, "it's what people want", and you still don't get it. You make it so easy for us and for that I thank you. You'll be in the unemployment line soon wondering where it all went wrong and I'll bet you still won't get it. Maybe then you can post some perspectives about the differances in U.I. payments between Canada and the US. You can be like the C3 guys who were going to lay the boots to management and get big wage increases to get them closer to AC wages. Then the unbelieveable happened and they were willing to work for free just to keep the company going. The F/A's were trying to get out of their unions so they could keep it going. How far do you think you are from that now? Are you ready for what will shurely come as a big surprize to you? It's comming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eclipse Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bigbigbus Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 c3 pilots were not willing to work for free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Well, I'm not sure if it was well said, but I agree with him. We've got to reduce our numbers, and most of those that remain may well have to adjust their work rules or income expectations. Dagger, if you're not a shareholder any more, and you have nothing at stake, why do you sound so passionate about this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 The irony of this is that everyone says we have to reduce our numbers when Robert Milton specifically came out and said he didn't want to do that. He wants to EXPAND the airline by making the existing staff more efficient. The war will end at some point and SARS will eventually peter out and if we have the efficiencies in place, we can go and nip at somebody else's heels internationally instead of wasting time trying to kick away the bothersome little terrier domestically. Reducing numbers only gets rid of our cheapest labour and drives the seat mile cost UP. We could lay off down to 1 airplane and our seat mile cost would still be too high, both because of our work rules and, now, we would be using our most expensive labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest givemeabreak Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 well AC pilots always wanted to be like their United brothers....better run and sign up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest givemeabreak Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Well you boys always preached you wanted the same model as the United boys! Better run and sign up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest b52er Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Okay Labtec, why don't you tell me what me what My T4 showed for last year. And the year prior, and prior, and prior, and prior, and prior. Ever wonder why WJ'ers don't post what they "really" make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flapsforty Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Did it sound like laughter eminating from my post? I was trying to sound P'od. I meant it to sound like "OPEN YOUR EYES LABTEC". Did I mention WJ anywhere in my post? Go have a look at American Airlines. They just got major concessions from their unions to stave off bankruptcy. What have guys like LABTEC done? Slam low cost carriers, now that's productive ( sarcasim ). Believe it or not most people have no desire to see AC go into banckruptcy. But most people can see it comming if the employees don't smarten up and start dealing with it productively today. You can complain about the 'bar being lowered', 29" seat pitch, and no meals all you want, it still won't help. Do you not think we are in the same boat as you are? Do you think anyone is going around laughing these days? We are doing our utmost to keep costs down as well, so we don't wind up in situations like AC. We are getting more low cost, because we are aware of the world around us, we have our EYES OPEN. I love the line in Labtecs' post about the senior AC guy telling him to just bury his head in the sand and all this will pass. That's really going to help isn't it? I find no humor in someone losing thier home and where you draw that assumption from my post, I have no idea. If the people at AC don't sit down and do what's necessary to save their jobs then that is a distict possibility. They have a chioce, don't blame the low costs, you have to take a look inward on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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