Jazz Pilots Ratify

[Mitch Cronin]

Krikey! With that selection it'd depend on my mood... I'll bet that 21 yr old stuff is awesome! 151 proof is good when you want to get hit hard...

I can only get 1 kind of Appletons at the stores I go to. It's an amber, and it's lovely, but it's just called rum I think.

[Wolfhunter]

Careful. You may soon find that your “skills” and vast experience are neither as valuable nor as marketable as you think. These skills are valued in response to market forces…send out 150 resumes (if you haven’t already) and see how many PFO letters are forthcoming. Even the ability to speak Klingon is a skill but in the absence of an invasion force has limited value. Humility and respect are admirable traits (especially in a forum such as this). Skill and experience are developed over time and I continue to favour the former over the latter. Humility often yields the high ground to arrogance as experience increases… this has more to do with a lack of discipline than any measurable increase in skill. As you may have guessed I find this continual I’m smarter than you are stuff to be getting a bit old. With further experience you will too.

[Guest Hawkeye]

One can easily read between the lines here and see just how these pliots really feel about their F/A's & other co-workers.

You think in times such as these one would show a little more respect & some compassion, given that these pilots claim to be so well educated & professional! If so, you should know better.

Not only do ACPA pilots put down most if not all other groups but take even a slice of their own co-workers.

I guess there is some truth in the saying, "They eat their young"

[Guest Nova Zemlya]

No rest for the wicked, Mitch! Right, Susan?

:[

NZ

[Guest JW]

I don't believe "the pilots", per se, ratified the settlement. Did they membership vote? The ALPA MEC ratified the contract on behalf of the pilots, without a vote, did they not?

[Guest Nova Zemlya]

My apologies firstly to Cargo Guy that my material tends to be a little spicy. I prefer to call it "juice."

And for Dozerboy- Man, I sympathize. I totally hear you. But I am referring to pilots sitting out months on end receiving a paycheque, not the ones being laid off. The mothercorp will need to layoff in the area of the number I quoted to rectify that problem. (Just guessing- an hypothesis is just as scientific as your 1,2,3's my friends)

I find it truly amazing that ACPA pilots at the bottom of the wage scale or being laid off have nothing but @ss-kissing, loving warmth for their most senior pilots when those kind of priviledges will never ever be matched by them. Or that the layoffs are minimized to the surly few at the bottom when the rest who should be laid off sit reserve for months on end and never get a call. This WILL happen in the coming months.

[cp fa]

First of all, the term "million dollar handshakes" gives the impression that these early retirement incentives, which are to offset the cost of training guys who are close to retiring anyway, are going to turn the guys who are getting them into instant millionaires. If you know something about the actual amount they are to receive that the rest of us don't, perhaps you could provide a source.

Secondly, while the pilot group negotiated 250 of these packages, the flight attendants also negotiated retirement packages - 2500 of them. I use the term "negotiated" because they were not just handed to the members. They were part of a concessionary package that included wage and contractual cuts deep enough to pay for them out of the members pockets.

And since you are comparing layoff numbers in terms of percentages, let's also compare wage cuts. The mainline pilots were asked to give up 15%. They will be taking at least that, and that doesn't include any of the other contractual concessions, nor does it take into account the pay cuts due to being bumped to smaller equipment. So, what percentage did your union give up?

[Guest Nail]

NZ,

It's sad to see such transparent bitterness in your posts. Things in the past didn't go your way I take it? Hindsight being 20-20 for most, I'm guessing you probably could now be a 320 skip at "mothercorp" (as you so affectionately call it) if you had come over sooner. (Even at the horrible offer of BOTL by ACPA) 3/4 of the pilots at AC's feed came over to "mothercorp" over an 8 to 10 year period and are doing fine. Once here, I think they saw that there was no prescription coolaid to drink, yet they also realised that perhaps the grass was just a bit greener on this "side of the fence".

There is definitely a unity at ACPA, as any group should have. We are also "alone at the top of the hill" in Canada, as far as flying jobs go. (You may chose to refute that if you insist!... but careful that your not just fooling yourself) That makes potshots from beyond inevitable I guess.

The reserve thing, you are wrong on. It has happened over the last few years, because things kept "gettin worse" in the industry, so flights got dropped. The logistics of reducing the pilot force (bids, lists, and training) as you must know takes time. (Unlike any other labour force) We have been in a "trailing reduction mode" ever since 9-11. It hopefully will soon stop. Did Jazz not recently have the same phenom? (I know they did in YVR for sure, certainly with the F/A's) This phenom will soon end, and maybe even go the other way for a while! (It sure has in the past) We'll all be flying 85 to 95 hours, with skinny R coverage.

Bottom line is we are ALL going to change to make this thing work. The "packages" offered are spartan at best. They simply counter the cost of retraining a guy that has less than about 3 years to go. There are lots of other little "lets" we're giving, plus the 16%. A lot of "priviledges" you talk of are slowly disappearing, that is the way of the biz in the last while I guess. (For all, not just the "junior few")The "loyalty" you talk of by the laid-off pilots comes from, IMO, the knowledge that it is:

1: a good job at mailine

2: most here are truly glad to be here, and are not bitter

3: It is top of the flying pyramid in Canada re: routes, pay, pension, interest, career fulfillment, A/C types available to fly, and other little perks. (...although we're about to take a torpedo amidships sir!)

4: You simply don't see anybody at mainline being openly jealous of life at the regionals...period.

Nail

[Guest floatrr]

"One can easily read between the lines here and see just how these pliots really feel about their F/A's & other co-workers. "

Don't take it personally please! I think I was just stating some of the obvious with a little tongue in cheek humour. Maybe a sad attempt at the humour though. Suffice it to say that a reality check could be in order.

"You think in times such as these one would show a little more respect & some compassion, given that these pilots claim to be so well educated & professional! If so, you should know better."

Tough times require tough measures. Don't think for a second that compassion and respect will ever come into play when dealing with the cheese heads in YUL. If you think that the pilots are the only ones with this view , try talking to a few of the junior engineers about the matter we are speaking of.

"Not only do ACPA pilots put down most if not all other groups but take even a slice of their own co-workers.

I guess there is some truth in the saying, "They eat their young" "

Did I say anything abot ACPA?

[Guest floatrr]

"As you may have guessed I find this continual I’m smarter than you are stuff to be getting a bit old. With further experience you will too. "

O.K., Who said anything about "I'm smarter than you stuff." My post above was not intended to insult the intellegence of the F/A's. I was stating a mere fact that an F/A could be replaced with someone with no related experience in a very short time. If you dig really deep you may just have to agree with me here. No?

[Guest floatrr]

I heard. How long do you think it would take to train them fully as an F/A. I think you catch my drift. We can only dream. haha.

[Guest Peanuts]

So floatrr,

Hooters, Mcdonalds,Starbucks etc. huh ?

Happen to know a few F/A's with Bachelor Degrees AND....can also speak more then 4 languages.

What about you ?

The reason they are here in the Airline Business is because they simply love their job. Remember back when you had to be a R.N to be able to apply for a F/A position ?

Now what is wrong with a well educated F/A ?

They may seem like they are silly, but that is because they can't be bothered dealing with the SP syndrome which a few pilots suffer from Just because you think ALL F/A's are uneducated, doesn't mean it is accurate. Same as All AC/Jazz pilots have big egos and suffer from SP. I am sure you don't belong in that group, right ???

[Guest floatrr]

I guess when you were writing your post you didn't see my responses below. nuf sed.

[Guest Peanuts]

Did read it but still wasn't very nice. You could have deleted that previous message to avoid any misunderstandings.

Thanks though, happy to know you don't thinl all F/A's are from Hooters etc.

[Guest Hawkeye]

((("Once here, I think they saw that there was no prescription coolaid to drink, yet they also realised that perhaps the grass was just a bit greener on this "side of the fence".)))

I suspect that grass you talk about is being cut & bundled in preparation for feed to the creditors over the next few months.

Sunddenly, the Grass looks a little greener on the Jazz side of the fence!

((("We are also "alone at the top of the hill" in Canada, as far as flying jobs go.")))

Maybe you should have typed: "We were alone at the top....." Times have changed, even Austin Powers recongnized that!

[Guest floatrr]

I also know some highly educated F/A's. Some of which are great friends of mine ,most of which agree with the concept above. They know they are riding the wave. Great job, great benefits and great time off. As long as it lasts. You don't have to be highly educated to figure this out. All the best.

[Guest Peanuts]

Thanks floatrr,

You seem like a real man. hope to fly with you some day.

Take care !

[Cargo Agent]

No need to apologize, you've mistaken my intent. I didn't say there is anything wrong with what you do. I find it amusing that you can push people's button's so well. In my opinion you are quite skilled at spicing the truth just a certain way, and getting people to react emotionally.

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Nail]

Hawkeye,

That's the true Canadian way is it? AKA.. the "lobster pot syndrome". Maybe we can start right from the flying club instructor, and all reach down to the lowest common denominator. That would be special. It will do one thing. It will drive away large numbers of the true talent out there, and let the likes of you "better your station". Am I wrong in this statement?

Can you not see the futility in dragging down the level of this job? All it takes is a group of individuals led by a twisted few that have their own axe to grind. The personal vandetta of those few actually makes their own group suffer (the bar is lowered for all) long-term, for what is truely short-term gain. The entire "food-chain" of the flying community suffers. Other avenues in Cdn commercial flying, have been slowly progressing (WJ,AT,SS,JG) in their own stations. We at AC have to move back. We will do this. Caution should come in this, as it appears Jazz is attempting to use this process for their own artificial gains. That is where the bar starts beating up all pilots, from all walks.

There are the "masses" at Jazz that are good people I am sure, but they continue to be led by, and influenced by a vocal minority of mudslingers. (That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.

Nail

[Guest Hawkeye]

((("That could've, should've, would've, but didn't move up long ago) THAT, is the real issue out there.")))

Get a reality check, the REAL issue out there is ECONOMICS and a once proud airline facing Bankruptcy or worse still, Liquidation!!!

Air Canada to survive has LOWERED the bar itself so it can become what most said would not work, The WJ Model to some degree. To compete it had no choice but to adapt or go under.

It just so happens that the cost structure at Jazz is lower and more efficient (Flexiable Work Rules). This has been confirmed by the court appointed monitor, Earnest & Young also the Seabury Group in New York.

Forgive us if we have tried to position ourselves by giving the parties involved in the Restruring Plan a Comprehensive Buisness Plan to help the ailing Airline. ACPA on behalf of it's members have done likewise.

I agree AC has whipsawed us (ACPA/ALPA)to lower the Pay & etc.

So long as were not on the same page (Seniorty List), I'm afraid that each respective union will be doing their best to place a competitive bid for the work. That's their job.