Capacity purchase model

[nozel]

Air Canada sold JR a package that looked too good to be true...on the up side. Air Canada even allowed JR control of how he deployed his equipement except for those routes designated for Zipp,Tango and Mainline.

Air Canada even paid him willingly for that capacity whether it was profitable or not.Jazz made money operating this way but it was the sneaky way to show that Jazz lost money... for Air Canada!It was a great set up allowing Air Canada to justify selling Jazz by claiming Jazz lost $90 mil!

JR you were had, hook line and sinker the day Air Canada offered the capacity purchase carrot.That the cruel reality of economic warfair.

[Homerun]

The capacity purchase model wasn't in place last year and doesn't take full effect until May. Your loads were off 30% in the third quarter and 19% in the fourth. That's why you lost 90 million.

[Guest Operation Bomberclad]

Zip was started in the third quarter. But never mind. Oh, and then there was parking of the regional jets. Just a detail that makes no sense and doesn't apply.

Everyone has decided that Jazz is the loser because they pay a little more than Zip does, and Zip is such a huge success. Laying on half the number of seats you pull off from the regional, and downgauging from Tango is not, by any stretch of the imagination an indication of success or growth. The only way you can make cannibalization look good is if you attribute the losses elsewhere.

So why don't we call a spade a spade and attribute the losses from Jazz to Zip in a very fair manner and say that Zip lost 60-70 milion or more in the first quarter of operation, and Jazz about 20-30 or so over an entire year.

[dagger]

Zip was started with a handful airplanes in a slive of the West on routes flown by Air Canada, not Jazz.

You talk about being fair, but clearly that's not what you want. You want a scapegoat.

[Tally-ho]

Dagger were you friggen born yesterday? We flew YYC-YYJ and YYC-YXX on the F28. We were continually told that we could not touch WJ on these routes and when they parked the remaining F28s the very next day there was mainline 737 or Airbus on the route. I was told that it was route building. If that argument is justified then why is JAZZ farming a bunch of work to Tier 3?

I suppose the corp didn't want to have to pay ACPA any more money to keep the F28s operating and just pulled them because it would have been rediculous to keep paying ACPA for JAZZ to keep operating the F28s. Isn't that a sick way for an airline to go about it's business. Pay another pilot group a &%$@! load of money for work that they never ever performed. Instead of putting that money towards buying a proper replacement aircraft. So you see Dagger you think you're so damm smart. What ACPA has done to this Corp as a whole is now affecting one and all so go ahead and put your head back in that pail of sand and all will make sense. You people within ACPA are about to go down with the rest of the ship and you WILL like it!!!!!!

[ChicoChico]

..and Zip replaced original AC flights not JAZZ flights.

[ChicoChico]

yes and AC "friggin" flew YYC-YYJ in a DC-9 in 1980...what does that prove to you??

[Guest Philip Aubin]

Hi,

You stated that, "I suppose the corp didn't want to have to pay ACPA any more money to keep the F28s operating and just pulled them because it would have been rediculous to keep paying ACPA for JAZZ to keep operating the F28s."

With respect to the F28's, the ACPA contract says that "CRA may continue to operate the F28 aircraft in accordance with the following schedule and numbers: After ratification of this agreement [sept 28th, 2000] - 29, after December 31st, 2003 - 15, after December 31st, 2005 - 0." Those were the absolute latest dates that the Company ever envisioned flying this very old aircraft type. It is not surprising that they decided to eliminate this fleet earlier.

I am fairly familiar with the ACPA Scope language and I cannot see where the ACPA pilots would have been paid for this F28 flying under our current contract. Could you clarify your point please?

Philip Aubin
AC pilot

[CAT3DUAL]

Phil, don't bother to try and educate these guys, right now they want a scapegoat and ACPA is it.

The great regional experiment of the 80's and early 90's is over. Now it's the Low Cost model, the thing is ACPA wasn't caught with their pants down like they were back then, and we are doing what it takes to keep the flying in the mainline.

As hard as it is for some at the feeders to accept this, ACPA did not create this problem, we are just reacting to it in the best way we can to protect our members. End of story, that simple, the same thing your MEC is doing for you I hope.

[Kevin J]

Dagger and Chico,

You guys just don’t get it! Up until Zips inception, every route that Zip flies in the west, was at one time or another flown by Jazz or one of its predecessors and I’m not talking ancient history here (read past two years). We flew these routes at certain times of the day and week in order to supplement AC mainline when loads called for smaller equipment types.

Last year saw the introduction of Zip and voila! Jazz suddenly is no longer required on these routes. In addition, Zip starts hiring flight attendants without ceasing at about the same time lay-offs at Jazz start with out ceasing. In fact, the YVR base as of April 2003 will be less than half the size it was prior to Zip.

Now you guys can Blah! Blah! Blah! until you’re blue in the face but the facts are the facts and you’re not going to change anyone’s mind at Jazz. Zip is a make work project for the mainline flight crews that can’t otherwise be laid-off!

P.S. your arrogance and ignorance to these facts are astounding.

[Guest Soarcerer]

....so then, can you tell us who flew these routes prior to Jazz????????

[DEFCON]

I thought that I had answered that question below?

[ChicoChico]

source: Anything more than 2 years ago is ancient history and therefore irrelevant...blah blah we just don't get it blah blah.

Chico

[Guest Soarcerer]

No, I didn't see this in your answer.

I was flying for a bush / regional outfit in the middle of the country from 1971 to 1978.

During this period, what carrier was doing the YYJ - YVR and YYC flying?

Also during the same years, who was serving all the aforementioned destinations? (Hint: It wasn't Jazz)

[DEFCON]

Your earlier question:

"Do you not recognize these as original AC routes?"

My answer:

Yes but, AC dumped them as they were not able to compete with any newly emerging regional in these markets. They bought and created regionals and intended to use them to their advantage. The AC pilots decided they wanted to merge with the regionals to protect their butts and jobs. They agreed and the whole issue has now come full circle excepting that the mood is a little sour this time out.

[DEFCON]

Your earlier question:

"Do you not recognize these as original AC routes?"

...and my earlier answer:

"Yes but, AC dumped them as they were not able to compete with any newly emerging regional in these markets."

[Stickle]

but the facts are the facts and you’re not going to change anyone’s mind at Jazz

These are the facts:

- Market conditions change so the company has to change with them.

- Jazz cannot fly the 737 due to scope. You are not going to change that in the short term. Learn to live with it.

- We have far more competition today than we did years ago (read two years). We cannot compete with against the WS 737 with Dash 8's.

- The F28 is gone forever. It was a good airplane while it served us but it was just too expensive to continue. The F28 was flying some of these routes because under the CP banner, the CP mainline could not make a go of it either. It was more cost effecient to operate the F28. Not to say that it made money on all routes, because it didn't. Prior to WS the F28 made reasonable returns. Everyone has to let this go.

- There is a new cost model that need to be introduced and it is called low-cost. This has to be instituted under the limitations that we now have (read contracts).

- ZIP is the tactical tool of AC in western Canada. Jazz may very well be more cost effecient at their status pay levels but I would go out on a limb that the minute Jazz got 737's there would be a hue and cry for a revisit of the pay scale because they are flying bigger hardware.

- Even if Jazz were to get sold you can be almost guaranteed that there will still be a commercial agreement with AC that has some significant fences in it. AC needs the feed but not at the risk of creating yet another domestic competitor.

The inccesant whining about how everyone at Jazz was done wrong by mothercorp is becoming more than a little tiresome. Look to the future and work within the infrastructure that is there today. Failing that then work constructively to change that infastructure.

Yes, mothercorp has made some mistakes and I believe that RM is trying to do his best in very difficult circumstances. Jazz employees are upset with him because of job losses there and the fact that there is the impression that there are not many at mainline. That is a fair feeling and I would probably feel the same but where was the Jazz unions when it came time to negotiate job protection.

Catch the vision or catch the bus

[Kevin J]

Yes, it was AC mainline but these routes were not flown by Jazz at the expense of mainline jobs. This of course with the exception of a certain 243 way back in ancient history. Get your head out of your a**!

[DEFCON]

If I understand you correctly I'd like to provide a slight clarification.

The so called "243" now "242" group was largely comprised of relatively junior regional people that decided to jump the que while a merger was in progress. Those people then turned around and begged the AC group to kill the merger and then Picher. Sorry, I don't believe these people deserve any special consideration!

[nozel]

I believe airBC 146's were used to replace Air Canada's costly DC9's about that time.I believe a "no layoff" clause in the calpa contract exsisted then so those 242 were paid all the while not flying?
Confirmation to this would enlighten the non pilots following this forum.

[CAT3DUAL]

Actually, the 243 were original AC pilots hired between 86 and 89 that were furloughed in 92. Most, if not all were OTS hiring. The odd guy had come from Austins and Time Air.

OTS= off the street

[DEFCON]

"Actually, the 243 were original AC pilots hired between 86 and 89 that were furloughed in 92. Most, if not all were OTS hiring. The odd guy had come from Austins and Time Air."

I disagree, some were OTS and a whole lot were from the regionals.

[DEFCON]

You've got it fairly close to the way it was however, Dash 8's were generally the replacement ac on most of those DC-9 routes. This was done to serve the pax need for frequency and support the mainline hub operations.

[CAT3DUAL]

The preferential hiring program that was in place back in 88 for the AC feeders, only required the company to interveiw 40% from the feeder group made up of ABC, AO, AA, ANO, and last but not least NWTA. Of that 40% they interveiwed, they only hired about 5 to 10%, the rest came from the mil, corparate, and the charter companies.

But say what, I'm going to humour you and say they all came from the feeders. Please inlighted me how all these guys are Q-jumpers. When no agreement of any sort was in place not Picher, not LOU 18, not anything. Please educate me, DEFCON, right now all I see is a guy who made some pretty bad career moves back in the mid 90's who is bitter.

But, I'm open minded, so go ahead.

If any of the Q-jumpers wish to jump in feel free.

[ChicoChico]

I believe a "no layoff" clause in the calpa contract exsisted then so those 242 were paid all the while not flying?
Completely and utterly FALSE! Those pilots were laid off as in: no pay ZERO, no benfits ZERO, no JOB comprende?
You are referring to "wet-lease" credits which did not apply to this situation. You may also be mixing up the fact that AC CALPA had a no-layoff clause in our contract which was ruled "not-applicable" to the factors that resulted in the 243 being layed off.
Cheers Chico