Our "Indigenous" folk may save us yet! How f'n ironic is that!?

[Mitch Cronin]

https://ricochet.media/en/1420/indigenous-tar-sands-treaty-could-be-trudeaus-worst-nightmare

"At simultaneous press conferences in Montreal and Vancouver earlier today, over 50 First Nations signed onto a new “treaty alliance” to stop the expansion of Alberta’s tar sands. It amounts to a mutual defence pact — call it NATO for pipelines — with signatories promising to mobilize their communities against any pipeline development that allows the tar sands to be expanded, even those thousands of kilometres away from their territory."

[Seeker]

There's a lot that can be said about the title you picked for your thread without even getting into the linked article or the issue of pipelines and tarsands. 

The indigenous peoples of the world are not the noble eco-warriors as they are imagined by popular culture - they are exactly the same as the Europeans and exactly the same as any other human group.  They engaged in brutal warfare with neighboring "nations" for access to resources and exploited their environments.  The only difference is that the population was smaller and therefore the effects were smaller.  If Europeans never came to North America and the indigenous population grew to 400 million they would be having the same effect on the environment and be dealing with the same issues as this 400 million is.  The only reason Canada's indigenous peoples can afford to get all righteous about tar-sands and pipelines is because they don't have to rely on it for jobs and income - there's an endless supply of money for them in Ottawa.

This is not intended to be pro-pipeline and/or pro tar-sands.  I think that ultimately our society will need to move away from petroleum based fuel sources and the sooner the better.  I just don't buy in to the "Noble Native" stereotype and don't find it ironic that the indigenous peoples would start marching around and stamping their feet about pipelines.

[Guest]

And the protests will be peaceful unless...... remember the OKA protests. 

[Mitch Cronin]

6 hours ago, seeker said:

[A] There's a lot that can be said about the title you picked for your thread without even getting into the linked article or the issue of pipelines and tarsands. 

The indigenous peoples of the world are not the noble eco-warriors as they are imagined by popular culture - they are exactly the same as the Europeans and exactly the same as any other human group.  They engaged in brutal warfare with neighboring "nations" for access to resources and exploited their environments.  The only difference is that the population was smaller and therefore the effects were smaller.  If Europeans never came to North America and the indigenous population grew to 400 million they would be having the same effect on the environment and be dealing with the same issues as this 400 million is.  The only reason Canada's indigenous peoples can afford to get all righteous about tar-sands and pipelines is because they don't have to rely on it for jobs and income - there's an endless supply of money for them in Ottawa.

This is not intended to be pro-pipeline and/or pro tar-sands.  I think that ultimately our society will need to move away from petroleum based fuel sources and the sooner the better.  I just don't buy in to the "Noble Native" stereotype and don't find it ironic that the indigenous peoples would start marching around and stamping their feet about pipelines.

Howdy Seeker.

[A] Indeed there is, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if one were to 'read into it' much that it doesn't say. What it says to me is that I'm struck by the irony of a people who've been screwed,chewed and tatoo'd by our western culture (primarily "Christian"), possibly turning out to be the ones responsible for saving all of humanity. [if indeed it is not too late?] 

Pilots in Canada are disproportionately sour on our indigenous people, and we all know why.... there's no need to do any muck-raking here.... But what many of you have completely lost sight of - as well as many of them, unfortunately - is their original, traditional culture, that many of them throughout North America are trying as best they can to return to... In many cases, their primary obstacles are their own "officials"... but that's a whole other subject, isn't it?

I'm about as anti-anything-to-do-with-environmental-destruction as one can be, I think... Not just pipelines and tar sands, but those in particular are, in my mind, about as wrong a path as we could possibly follow at the moment. 

Cheers

[Seeker]

Mitch;

You're right, I am sour on indigenous people.  Sour to the exact amount that I'm sour on European capitalist people.  Canada's indigenous people were a stone age civilization when the Europeans came here and if you went back and looked at stone age people in Europe I bet you would have found the same Mother Earth/spirit-of-the-bear type philosophy.  There is no difference between indigenous people and European people other than level of development. 

I know you're against the pipeline and tar-sands and if you want to hitch your wagon to their protests based on the concept of "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" I have no problem with that.  The reason I responded to your post is what is implied in the title - "Ironic that the indigenous (who have been so terribly wronged by the white man) will act in a way that saves the white man from themselves."  I suspect that if enough money is thrown at them their protests will suddenly vanish.  There is no higher moral or ethical purpose being served and the indigenous people are not more pure and cannot be assumed to be acting this way out of altruism - human nature is universal and crosses cultural boundaries.

 

 

 

[Guest]

Much has been posted regarding the evils of the oil industry, the threat to the world due to over population so I will challenge all of you who preach this to adhere to the following and lead the way for the rest of us:

  Counsel your selves, children and grandchildren to abstain from having children, grandchildren and great grandchildren and thereby add to the need to have zero increase in population and save the world..

2.      Give up all items fueled or produced from “evil oil”

3.      Heat or otherwise energize your home from natural sources.

4.      Consider the cost to the environment in producing your so-called  sources of alternate energy.

5.      If you can not do all of the proceeding then get off our backs.

[Mitch Cronin]

So if an individual can't immediately switch to alternate energy sources, then they should just give up and join the 'carry on burning every ounce of oil left' crowd, eh Malcolm? 

Listen up bub.... "get off our backs"? .... dream on! Those forests feed the whole earth, not just "your" province. The waterways and eco-systems those pipelines can and do destroy, respect no political boundaries either... "our backs?" Get off your high horse old man. Your day is done. Your generation has done more damage to this planet than one can imagine... In truth, we don't even know, at this point in time, if the damage is repairable enough to maintain the possibility of human survival. Your generation is also responsible for handing all the master keys to corporate greedsters so our chances for recovery are even more difficult. You've clearly abandoned any and all notions of "stewardship' in your naive belief that those corporate masters will look after everything properly.... Voices like yours should just sit in silence now, while those who are trying to fix your mess for future generations do what they can.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Guest]

Seems your saviors are divided:

Jim Carr rejects idea First Nations are united against pipelines

 

First Nation communities in Canada and U.S. signed treaty this week to stop oilsands pipelines

 

CBC News Posted: Sep 24, 2016 5:00 AM ET Last Updated: Sep 24, 2016 5:00 AM ET

Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr is dispelling the idea that all Indigenous groups in Canada are united against pipelines after a group of First Nations in Canada and the United States signed a treaty opposing new projects to carry  diluted bitumen from the Alberta oilsands.

"If you put the mayors of major cities in British Columbia and Alberta in a room you'd probably not get consensus and you'd certainly not get unity. If you put the premiers in a room talking about these energy projects there would be a difference of opinion. So to, no doubt, there will be a difference of opinion in Indigenous communities," Jim Carr said in an interview with Chris Hall on The House.

On Thursday, 50 North America First Nations signed the Treaty Alliance Against Tar Sands Expansion to oppose building more pipelines from the oilsands. The targets include files Carr's offices is reviewing, including projects proposed by Kinder Morgan Inc., TransCanada Corp. and Enbridge Inc.

Carr says there are other Indigenous communities "who have spotted opportunity" in natural resource development.

"We respect that Indigenous people want to make sure that the sacred relationship with the land, the air and the water is respected. By the way, that should not be a goal only of Indigenous communities. That should be the goal of all Canadians," he said.

Ongoing talks

 

Four of the five Tsimshian First Nations, with whom the government has a constitutional obligation to consult on resource projects, have given their consent to TransCanada's Pacific Northwest liquid natural gas pipeline.

Carr says it's the job of the Canadian government to make sure all Canadians have a chance to weigh in on major pipeline projects.

"It goes back to the very balance of the government's policy that the environment and the economy go hand in hand," he said.

That's a challenge also facing Alberta Premier Rachel Notley, whose province stands to gain economically if Trans Mountain, Northern Gateway and the Energy East pipeline projects are approved. Notley says just because some groups strongly oppose pipelines doesn't mean she'll stop trying to sell their merits.

"Those players in our political system who suggest that, 'Oh well you introduced your climate change leadership plan at this point and everybody hasn't completely changed their mind on this matter the next day,' are, I think, playing politics and not understanding the way these kinds of conversations roll out in a country as complicated and democratic and ours," she told The House.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mitch Cronin said:

So if an individual can't immediately switch to alternate energy sources, then they should just give up and join the 'carry on burning every ounce of oil left' crowd, eh Malcolm? 

Listen up bub.... "get off our backs"? .... dream on! Those forests feed the whole earth, not just "your" province. The waterways and eco-systems those pipelines can and do destroy, respect no political boundaries either... "our backs?" Get off your high horse old man. Your day is done. Your generation has done more damage to this planet than one can imagine... In truth, we don't even know, at this point in time, if the damage is repairable enough to maintain the possibility of human survival. Your generation is also responsible for handing all the master keys to corporate greedsters so our chances for recovery are even more difficult. You've clearly abandoned any and all notions of "stewardship' in your naive belief that those corporate masters will look after everything properly.... Voices like yours should just sit in silence now, while those who are trying to fix your mess for future generations do what they can.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Gee Mitch, back to personal attacks. You only addressed one item in the list I presented.  Nowhere did I say "So if an individual can't immediately switch to alternate energy sources, then they should just give up and join the 'carry on burning every ounce of oil left' crowd,"  True believers do find the means to switch, those who just talk the talk don't.   As far as my generation being responsible, the largest consumers of products are the generations following the baby boomers but I guess I should not talk for the baby boomers as I am not one, are you? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/25/millennials-overtake-baby-boomers/

Can not put it in my pipe as I don't smoke ..... 

[QFE]

I wonder if the Fort MaKay First Nations will

want their investment money with Suncor back.  

[DEFCON]

I'm with Mitch on the environment, but I agree wholly with Seeker in respect to the pretend altruism of the Natives.