So long a/c 604 -aka: The Gimli Glider

[Guest rattler]

Great Picture thanks.

Mitch: the aircraft did not save any lives, the people flying it did. I too love historic machinery but the "Glider" just does not fit my idea of something worthy of becoming a National Shrine. Guess it is just a case of "different strokes for different folks"

[Kip Powick]

Agree.(with rattler)

[Mitch Cronin]

Y'see? That's what makes this world interesting. Everyone's got a different perspective.

...and who said anything about a shrine? What I said was, it's a piece of Canadian aviation history. I'd like to see a stop to the continuing destruction of so much of that. The airplane is worth keeping here at home. Park it at Dowsnview or in Ottawa or something. Or let me have it, I'll find a place for it.

[J.O.]

Mitch:

I understand your attachment to the machines. I think it's safe to say they are one of your passions, and you get as much enjoyment out of seeing your handiwork take to the skies as you would from nailing Gilmour's Money solo on your Strat. But we don't put wrecked cars in a museum just because people walked away from the accident. I don't think the Gimli glider belongs in one either.

I agree with Don. Pilots should stay away from the hero analogies. But we should also stay away from the "heel" analogies. Not because we are supposed to be a fraternity that sticks together, but because any of us, given the same set of circumstances (which virtually never happens), could make the same mistakes. It's easy to write an accident report that looks at overt human errors. It's even pretty easy to identify organizational factors (the policy, procedure and process stuff) that contribute to an accident. But I've yet to see an investigative report that meaningfully hits all the nuances of human interaction and personal bias that also play a part in all of these events.

[Kip Powick]

This fit ??

[J.O.]

Cool! A B767SP. Didn't know they built one of those!

Thanks.

[Kip Powick]

I just noticed...the LED s look like they are are partially out....or is that an illusion.?

If not an illusion was that a requirement for the aircraft to get close to the ground without something automatic happening to the thrust ......or is that just a selected config for a relatively slow fly-by???

[Don Hudson]

IFG;

Many thanks as always for your response - I see what you're saying. I think what I was meaning to say was captured by what you said:

Both are actually an un-necessary personalization of the natural and productive process of understanding any safety breach in some depth.

That's exactly what I wanted to say! Neither has a place.

What the First Officer especially, did, was to draw from all experience and training in order to instinctively (and "artistically", if that's the word), balance the forces/momentum that his aircraft had at the time of the failure and it worked brilliantly. Beyond those interventions they were along for the ride. That is physical fact. The landing may have had as much chance of an "alternate" outcome but for the fact that there were no tall buildings, they didn't clip the large approach light structures just before their touchdown point which would have compromised the wing structure/fuel tanks, and there were no sharp or solid obstructions or huge drop-offs like those at Sao Paulo where instead of a survivable overrun, the high plateau of a runway which had huge cement structures at it's end and a thirty-foot drop on it's sides made any overrun non-survivable, as we saw.

But I was uncomfortable with the heroism attributed to, (and which continues to be attributed to) the BA038 crew. Such a public appearance by the crew would have to have been a command performance to assuage suspicions of crew guilt but that is wholly the wrong way to go about it. The facts must speak for themselves. It was disappointing to see a world-class carrier like BA stoop to the corporate version of histrionics by trotting out the crew so early when the cause wasn't (and still isn't) known, (and if it was and they knew the crew was entirely innocent, then, for the same reasons, they should have told everyone what they knew).

Sure, it plays well with the public and the employees but any fall from grace would be doubly harmful to BA's "public image" and the trust everyone had in their initial statements. It was highly risky and I believe an inappropriate action which in today's corporate world of getting their word in first, could have (and may still) backfire badly.

In this business, although it is an idealistic view, the facts, not emotions or politics, should speak. Best to leave "heroism" and it's opposite, to the storybook authors and screenwriters, (when they return...).

[Don Hudson]

I don't know if anything of the magic of aviation is ever experienced by a man in the business end of the cargo operations of an airline, but for a lot of us there is some "magic" there, and the machines are a big part of it. Tossing the memorable ones to the scrap heap (or exporting them to US museums) is a bloody sad Canadian habit that I personally wish would stop!

Beautifully said, Mitch...just great. It's because that magic has disappeared that a whole lot of things are happening that are inappropriate to aviation today.

[Don Hudson]

Kip;

Agree.(with rattler)

Vive la différence, n'est pas?

In the photo - those are LED's...for the slow flypast. Bit of a shame the ship's so dirty.

The romance of flying started a lot, (all?) of us and in spite of thundering into the realities of the business later on in one's career or as it is today, for many, that romance and "magic" remains near our hearts...for some it's the smell of castor oil and the sight of smoke from R2800's firing up as we watched Constellations head for Europe, for others it's the rumble and howl of RB211's opening up - of seeing a beautifully crafted design like the Sikorsky S-42, the DC7C, the DC8-63 series, B707 Intercontinenental or the Airbus 340-600 or the Triple7-300 which all belonged in the air.

In many ways, it may be time for that magic to be rekindled and recaptured or at least understood because that is the reason d'etre of aviation - without the "wonder of flight", it's merely an instrumental way of separating people from their money just like everything else, but with a difference - the cost of not knowing one is in the aviation business and not solely in the profit game, is higher.

[Kip Powick]

Hi Don,

As one passes through their own life as an aviator, many things are never forgotten, that first flight, that first solo and the list goes on. My career was everything I wanted and more. I had reached an age where it was time to make a turn with max bank at 30 degrees or less, as the fun of yank and bank had been done and with the advent of the non A2A aircraft...(well I guess there is still A2A if you call releasing your weapons at 30nm, A2A !!) the thrill of one man/one machine was slowly on the wane.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, can compare to flying a single seater with no airspeed restrictions, no attitude restrictions, and pitting one againat another, (all in fun). You came down soaked, your heart racing, and your body aching and it was the stuff memories were made of.

I enjoyed the slow pace of commercial aviation and there was hardley a sector that went by without someone wanting to come up to the pointy end and see the magic....then 9/11............. and the fun dropped faster than AC stock prior to CCAA

For me it was pretty near over and I'm glad it was because I left with nothing but great memories, many from CF, and many from civy flying and I honestly don't think you will ever see what we had "before" come back.

In the CF the one man/one machine against one man/one machine is pretty near gone as far as actually getting to match your personal driving skills against another.

Civil aviation has lost a lot of the lustre, the inter action of crew and passengers has gone the way of the dodo and that is a shame and that fact alone, in my opinion, detracts from the quality of life as an airline driver. For me it wasn't an ego thing, it was the fun of having folks come upfront and being able to explain how all the stuff worked, and why we loved the job and perhaps even plant the seed of desire in a youngsters head. Not everyone wants the job but many don't know what it entails and today, fewer and fewer people have any idea what the guys up front are doing...when they are awake!! So sad.

Then again, I'm sure those that flew in open cockpits with the wind whistling in the wires felt the same way with the advent of airspeed indicators and closed cabins.......in the long run, are we all just dinosaurs...waiting for the next ice age?

Time for a glass of Shiraz !!!

Have a nice weekend.

[Don Hudson]

Nothing, absolutely nothing, can compare to flying a single seater with no airspeed restrictions, no attitude restrictions, and pitting one againat another, (all in fun). You came down soaked, your heart racing, and your body aching and it was the stuff memories were made of.

Civil aviation has lost a lot of the lustre, the inter action of crew and passengers has gone the way of the dodo and that is a shame and that fact alone, in my opinion, detracts from the quality of life as an airline driver. For me it wasn't an ego thing, it was the fun of having folks come upfront and being able to explain how all the stuff worked, and why we loved the job and perhaps even plant the seed of desire in a youngsters head. Not everyone wants the job but many don't know what it entails and today, fewer and fewer people have any idea what the guys up front are doing...when they are awake!! So sad.

Again, how wonderfully said, Kip!

I never got the chance to fly in the CF - graduated in '66, went down to the recruiting office on Seymour and was told there was no chance - bunch got hired that same year but from "eastern" Canada. I completely agree with your remarks re having had "the" career in the airlines; I too can look back with a lot of satisfaction. It will be different for those who choose the career, just as it was, (as you say) different for us after the white hats of PanAm left the scene.

Anyway...yer right - time for a Shiraz.

[sjsa]

Have to admit that if I was involved I'd find it a bit embarrassing. Like the town in Montana having a Municipal Holiday named after the Western Airlines skipper who landed his 737 at the wrong airport. I might be a bit "busy" to take part in the ceremonies.